Ranchers and Showing

[Linda]

Instead of entirely hijacking the California show thread, I'm going to move my post to this new thread. It is a continuation of a discussion started at

http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11036&page=2

A rancher is someone who raises for profit, wether it be pelting, wholesale or pets. Number of chins doesn't matter.

Thank you! That's a definition that I have a good feel for.

You are correct, most smaller "show breeders" probably don't consider themselves ranchers, but technically anyone who has a ranch brand is a rancher by USDA standards.

And this is the opposite of what I am used to. There are so many things about the animals themselves that are similar between dwarf hamsters and chins (putting together new pairs, temperament, etc.). The fact that the ranchers are involved in shows, judging, setting of standards, etc. is very different, though.

How involved is the USDA in the licensing of chin ranchers? Are all ranchers USDA certified? I can see Bowen's on the USDA list but don't see a number of the other big ranchers whose location I know.

Linda, this is absolutely not true. In the 8 shows I've been two only three animals have been off the table - two chewers and one with a runny eye.

Well, I won't be able to take my chins with me the week before, so they won't be coming regardless. But why are chewers removed from the table? It's not contagious. Sure, they won't place well, but I can't imagine that their owners expected them to place well. And if chewers are removed, are other undesireable traits like those with maloccusion or missing toes also removed? In other words, is it chins with traits you don't want in offspring that are removed or is there something specific with fur chewers that disqualifies them from the show table?

Granted it isn't about placing, it is about learning what you have, and how to better it. Not all pet animals are bad, and in three generations you'll have a "complete" pedigree on the line. (Shhh... that's a secret)

Well, I know my rescues are too far from show quality to even start down that road, so I really know what I need to for them. But going to a show and seeing what is top quality will really help me assess other chins which is why I'm trying to get to the show. Although it is always good to get a judge's opinion (a fresh look by an objective third party), I want to know enough myself to be able to do pretty good assessments of my animals and the kits I produce as well as assess those I'm considering purchasing. I don't have to become a judge to do that although it would be nice to assist judges at shows to better learn how the experienced judges evaluate the animals.

So chin pedigrees only go back three generations? I guess that's not necessarily out of line with other animals. And I suspect some ranchers help feed the pet store industry leading to a range of quality there. Do many of the large ranchers whose names I see on this forum also breed for the pet store industry or do those tend to be a different population of ranchers?
Linda

 

[aznmexaggie]

I'm just curious, but how are hamsters judged? Are grading lights used to help assess quality?

 

[threewingedfury]

How involved is the USDA in the licensing of chin ranchers? Are all ranchers USDA certified? I can see Bowen's on the USDA list but don't see a number of the other big ranchers whose location I know.

Chin ranchers/breeders are not required to be USDA certified unless they're selling to a reseller - such as pet stores and wholesalers. No, not all ranchers are USDA certified. It doesn't matter if you have 10 or ten thousand, as long as you're considered a Retail Pet Store under the USDA you're not required to be certified. A Retail Pet Store is defined as "A license is not required for any person who breeds and raises domestic pet animals for direct retail sales to a buyer who does not intend to resell the animal".

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/downloads/manuals/dealer/exemptions.pdf

But why are chewers removed from the table?

Judges are grading the chinchillas on the pelt standard - they could care less about the personality or any other factors other than that coat. From the neck back to the base of the tail is all that is judged. Not the head (other than if the judge sees runny eyes), not the tail (unless the tail disrupts the fur), not the feet (your chin could be a tri-pod and it doesn't matter). Fur chewed pelts aren't very attractive, are they? We're looking at quality, and furchewed animals do not show a quality animal. It could be a grand show champion at one show - start fur chewing, and then it would be knocked off the table at the next.

And if chewers are removed, are other undesireable traits like those with maloccusion or missing toes also removed?

Malo - yes - if there are runny eyes, the animal can be docked a few places. Animals that slobber would also be knocked down because it could actually be malo. This is because it's looked down upon to breed animals who have malo. Sometimes the animal may not have malo, but just an allergy and the eyes water - most likely it's not going to place top of the show due to the runny eye. Missing toes - no, they don't care.

So chin pedigrees only go back three generations?

It really just depends. Some of my animals I can track back up to 8 generations - some just 3 or 4. Some are extremely detailed, others aren't. It really just depends on what information the breeder has and what information the breeder gives you.

And I suspect some ranchers help feed the pet store industry leading to a range of quality there. Do many of the large ranchers whose names I see on this forum also breed for the pet store industry or do those tend to be a different population of ranchers?
Linda

Some ranchers do sell to pet stores, hence the USDA certification. I don't know if Bowens sells to pet stores, I honestly don't know very much about them. I know of a few USDA certified chin ranchers, but I'm not exactly sure if they sell to pet stores/wholesalers either. I'm not sure of any on the forum that sell to pet stores, but I could be wrong.

 

[AZChins]

I've had pedigrees that go back decades. It seems that the three generations back thing is a lot of times done to save time.

 

[Linda]

Hamsters are judged on a 100 point scale for standardized colors (70 points for unstandardized since the color and markings category is eliminated for them). Here are the basic elements that are judged:

Color and markings 30 points
Type 25 points
Fur 20 points
Size 10 points
Condition 10 points
Eyes and ears 5 points

And no, we don't use grading lights. We require all animals to be on the same bedding, in the same or similar show pens, etc. to equalize. And the animals are ranked within their class (so only one first place per class) although the judge can withhold awards. For instance, if no hamster entered is worthy of Best in Show, that award can be withheld although that does not happen very often.

Perhaps the biggest difference, though, is that a judge handles the animals. Type, fur, condition, and even size can only be judged when you are able to handle them. Then again, we assess the undercolor (color at the roots) on the belly fur so even elements of color and markings require handling. I think only eyes and ears can be done fully without handling! And we have some of the same temperament issues that you do with chins, but we require a hamster to be handleable or it is disqualified. When I as the judge get bit (usually by a dwarf hamster), I disqualify the animal although I may give some comments on the animal. I know enough about handling the animals that I don't generally get bitten by those that are just a bit frightened and unsure.

Linda

 

[threewingedfury]

Well the difference with handling the chins vs. hamsters is that the chin can slip fur and their coat can also become very greasy. In the show cage, that's not an issue. Also - many chins don't like to be touched, much less picked up to be judged. IMO, you really risk harming a chin by taking each individual out of it's show cage and handling it unless you're the actual owner. Ranchers have too many chins to work on each individual chin's temperament, so they're best left in their show cage. Many chins will shoot out of their cage as the door opens - judges wouldn't be able to handle the disruptions in the show from wild chins. Of course they have much more experience with handling chins than many of us do, but the shows are usually rushed already. It's much easier to use grading lights and to have everyone on a sheet of white grading paper so that you can assess the quality.

 

[Linda]

Judges are grading the chinchillas on the pelt standard - they could care less about the personality or any other factors other than that coat. From the neck back to the base of the tail is all that is judged. Not the head (other than if the judge sees runny eyes), not the tail (unless the tail disrupts the fur), not the feet (your chin could be a tri-pod and it doesn't matter). Fur chewed pelts aren't very attractive, are they? We're looking at quality, and furchewed animals do not show a quality animal. It could be a grand show champion at one show - start fur chewing, and then it would be knocked off the table at the next.

I think the biggest thing I need to remember is that chins are graded to a pelt standard. Quality is not overall animal quality (at least my version of animal quality) but pelt quality only. I've dealt with the smaller rodents, and for them, the overall animal is looked at not just the coat/pelt/fur.

I have to assume the standards were developed by ranchers -- and by those whose primary goal is quality pelts and not raising pets for the pet industry although many seem to also do that.
Linda

 

[Spoof]

Interesting on the hamsters, do you notice they get greasy with all the handling, or is there only one judge per show?

Chinchilla shows can have 2-4 judges, at least one judge and a trainee, but I've seen 4 get up there and argue it out, lol.

From the neck back to the base of the tail is all that is judged.

That is what separates the chinchillas from most other small mammal judging - live animals are judged only on what they would look like as a pelt if they were pelted that day.

They don't need eyes, ears, legs or a tail so long as the pelt is in pristine condition. Also why they do not allow handling. )

You posted again before I finished.

I have to assume the standards were developed by ranchers -- and by those whose primary goal is quality pelts and not raising pets for the pet industry although many seem to also do that.

Selling for pets is very recent, they didn't really became pet store items until the late 90's, even then the demand didn't take off until early 2000.

All larger ranchers I've spoken to will wholesale bulk amounts (20+) if offered a decent price, especially if the price of pelts is down.

 

[Linda]

Interesting on the hamsters, do you notice they get greasy with all the handling, or is there only one judge per show?

Chinchilla shows can have 2-4 judges, at least one judge and a trainee, but I've seen 4 get up there and argue it out, lol.

Yes, hamsters can get greasy and some species are more known for it than others. A judge can take that into consideration, but again, fur is only 20% of the score so less of an impact anyway.

And yes, there is usually only one judge. The Swedish use a different system (which others are switching to or considering switching to) which gives the motivation to have multiple judges. In that case, though, the judges judge the animals entirely independently and each gives their awards without consideration to how the other has judged. It's like having two (or three) full shows on a single show day.

The difference with their system, as I understand it, is that there is a threshhold for various awards -- say over 80 points by a sanctioned judge gives a point toward a championship. You have to accrue so many points for the different championship levels. When a hamster's life span is in the two year range and show life can be half that (if not less), you need to get that hamster judged when still in its prime to earn the championship hence multiple judges at a single show to earn the points needed without having to host/attend a show every weekend! The dog shows have a similar concept with a new show judged by a new judge every day of a long (often four day) weekend show.

That is what separates the chinchillas from most other small mammal judging - live animals are judged only on what they would look like as a pelt if they were pelted that day.

They don't need eyes, ears, legs or a tail so long as the pelt is in pristine condition. Also why they do not allow handling. )

Yes. Pretty much all other animals are expected to be pets, and most other small mammals/rodents bred by show breeders will go into pet homes. There are actually hamster fur coats, but...

Linda

 

[Linda]

Well the difference with handling the chins vs. hamsters is that the chin can slip fur...

I know what fur slip is, but I'm afraid I don't really understand it. It is an automatic defense mechanism chins do to get away? Is it a conscious action?

Also - many chins don't like to be touched, much less picked up to be judged. IMO, you really risk harming a chin by taking each individual out of it's show cage and handling it unless you're the actual owner. Ranchers have too many chins to work on each individual chin's temperament, so they're best left in their show cage.

Again, this is a difference in what is bred for. If you had handled enough pet store hamsters, you'd know that commercial hamster breeders don't put any effort into ensuring their animals are handleable before breeding or selling. A show breeder who wants to win will ensure their breeding animals are handleable. A experienced judge with reasonable handling skills needs to be able to pick up that hamster, turn it on its back to inspect the belly fur, etc. for it to have a chance of placing.

And handleability in hamsters is both genetic and environment. The longer I breed, the higher I believe the genetic element is, but even if it's learned from the parents, a breeder can choose to only breed those animals that have good temperaments, and they tend to get animals with good temperament. If that were valued in chins and became an important element in winning a show, I bet you'd see much better temperaments in chins.

In hamsters, US breeders will say the top animal is a hamster that can win both a Best in Show award and a Best Pet award (and that means that hamster has to beat out every kid's hamster that has been handled multiple times a day by multiple kids every day of its life!). The Best Pet award is temperament first followed by condition while the Best in Show follows the point system already listed. So a top quality hamster has both great temperament and great show qualities. When you make that the standard, the bar everyone wants to reach, you change the way people pick their breeders and tend to produce not only show quality animals but also top pets sought by pet owners.

We actually say a hamster doesn't get bred unless you have good temperament and good health. Only then do you even consider whether it meets the show standards and should be part of your breeding program.
Linda

 

[Riven]

Originally Posted by Spoof View Post
A rancher is someone who raises for profit, wether it be pelting, wholesale or pets. Number of chins doesn't matter.

I'm going to disagree with this. No one breeds to lose money, sometimes ranchers lose money, sometimes hobby breeders make money. By saying this you're saying that backyard breeders who don't really care and take in free chins to breed are ranchers, because the only reason they're doing it is for the money. I think many ranchers would be very offended by that...

According to many old time ranchers a rancher is someone who is versatile, that includes pelting and wholesaling, breeding for improvement, and breeds for profit, not to have cute little babies. This line is hard to distinguish because pet and hobby breeders are in general newer than the pet market.

 

[lauralynne]

Here is a previous thread on ranchers/hobbyists

http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3380&highlight=breeding+runs&page=2

ETA link.

 

[RDZCRanch]

I know what fur slip is, but I'm afraid I don't really understand it. It is an automatic defense mechanism chins do to get away? Is it a conscious action?

I don't believe it's a conscious action. It just happens when a certain amount of pressure is applied to the fur. The fur is simply released and you end up with a buig chunk of fur missing.

Again, this is a difference in what is bred for.

And handleability in hamsters is both genetic and environment. The longer I breed, the higher I believe the genetic element is, but even if it's learned from the parents, a breeder can choose to only breed those animals that have good temperaments, and they tend to get animals with good temperament. If that were valued in chins and became an important element in winning a show, I bet you'd see much better temperaments in chins.

In hamsters, US breeders will say the top animal is a hamster that can win both a Best in Show award and a Best Pet award (and that means that hamster has to beat out every kid's hamster that has been handled multiple times a day by multiple kids every day of its life!). The Best Pet award is temperament first followed by condition while the Best in Show follows the point system already listed. So a top quality hamster has both great temperament and great show qualities. When you make that the standard, the bar everyone wants to reach, you change the way people pick their breeders and tend to produce not only show quality animals but also top pets sought by pet owners.

In chinchillas, they are bred for temperament. Many ranchers will not breed an animal with an attitude as usually somewhere down the line that trait will show through again. Sometimes a chinchilla's attitude is purely from environmental changes which...when you bring a chin to a show makes for a completely different environment. The chins at shows are usually in show pens very close to one another so some of your animals may not be next to animals whose smells they recognize and it becomes very stressful. You get one chin starting to cry in the show room and BOOM...it's all over the room. You also get the chins more stressed when the grooming is done because most of the chins at a show have never been groomed before because A they were at a rancher's where they aren't usually groomed before a show or B being shown by someone who has never groomed before. Adding all the elements that go into a show for chinchillas...even the ones with the BEST temperaments would not handle being held very well. We also have to worry about climate control which limits the amount of shows we can have and when we can have them. So you have chins that go all year long in a rancher's barn with minimal to no handling and even some of the bigger hobby breeders can't get to handling all 100+ of their animals on a daily basis (Peggy and Susan...no talking! I said "some" ). Also, to prevent fur slips from mishandling or grease transfer a lot of breeders opt not to handle their animals for two months before show or even longer.

My chins are handled on a daily basis and all are talked to on a regular basis so that they can recognize my voice. My house is a calm environment and my chins are used to it...as they should be from living here all year around. I also opt to handle chins as little as possible for two months before show. My chins go back to being perfectly normal and friendly as soon as the show is over but under the lights...a lot of my chins will freak because some chins can't see well under the lights. Their cages are moved around and jostled often and there are lots of voices they are unfamiliar with.

With chinchillas...it's a different show environment I would assume than a hamster show. Things have been changed over the years to minimize stress on the chins because obviously we don't want to stress them to death, but in order to have our shows go the way we want them to the chins have to be subjected to a certain amount of stress. A lot of people put a lot of work into making their chins look their best...to have one judge mess all that up with a little fur slip or accidentally letting your chin loose would cause a lot of trouble between everyone.

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

That's interesting about the hamsters and shows. I can't say I have ever heard about hamster shows-but I know many people have never heard of a chinchilla shows either. Very interesting. Can you provide a link to a show that was done and links to what is considered a show quality hamster?

Jessica

 

[Spoof]

By saying this you're saying that backyard breeders who don't really care and take in free chins to breed are ranchers, because the only reason they're doing it is for the money. I think many ranchers would be very offended by that...

The people are still making money = business = farming/ranching. It's an unfortunate side to the animal industry.

I really wanted to see the hamster fur coat, but can't find any links with a picture. It says they only used 100, yet it takes ~100 chinchillas to make a full length coat.

 

[arf2184]

No one breeds to lose money

I do! (only half kidding there)

I wasn't aware that there were hamster shows. Thanks for sharing. It's very interesting.

Another note on the no handling by the judges, chin fur does get greasy when they are handled and handling can really mess up the grooming (especially if tried to flip a chin on its back...very few will tolerate this, most will squirm like crazy). This would make the chins that end up on the show table repeatedly (at MCBA shows for section champ, top male/female, and grand show champ) quite messed up by the end of the show and make accurate judging for the top awards quite difficult.

 

[Megan]

Linda, I think you are approaching as too much of a "pet" outlook, vs a ranching outlook.

Chins primary purpose(like it or not folks) is for use as a pelt. Not as a pet, thus the old standards are based on what the animal would make as a pelt. Most chins,by nature, are not agressive. So why work on something that comes fairly "natural"? I've gotten plenty of ranch chins, that are 100% handleable. Are the cuddly? No, but chins aren't supposed to be. I can handle all but one of my animals without fear of being bitten. The female that will attempt to bite, produced one of my sweetest and most people friendly kits I've had born here.

While many of us do not pelt, and keep our animals as "pets", we still as breeders, breed towards a pelt standard and most of us are understanding, and accepting of what the chinchillas primary use always has been, and is--and it isn't that of being a pet. So we can't expect a shows standard, which was developed long before chins were thought of as a possible pet, to cater to the pet people.

 

[jags]

Just because the show system is judged on a pelt standard does not mean that we as breeders can not do more toward breeding calmer pet friendly animals. I know I lean away from breeding very high stung animals not only to make them nicer to handle but also because they breed better, show better, have less health problems and less chewing. I also much prefer to be able to set an animal on my hand for someone to look at or for pic's without them being so skittish that they jump all around or when held in place scream up a storm.

 

[Linda]

Just because the show system is judged on a pelt standard does not mean that we as breeders can not do more toward breeding calmer pet friendly animals. I know I lean away from breeding very high stung animals not only to make them nicer to handle but also because they breed better, show better, have less health problems and less chewing. I also much prefer to be able to set an animal on my hand for someone to look at or for pic's without them being so skittish that they jump all around or when held in place scream up a storm.

Thanks for responding. I agree with leaning away from high strung animals in most any species/breed. We face that hamsters, and if you know your herd/colony, it's not hard to selectively choose breeders that improve temperament. Over time, it makes a huge difference. To me it's a win-win.

I've actually looked at your site a number of times and really wish you were closer. There are a number I would be interested in. I'm very interested in genetics and like the fact that you list yours quite explicitly. Another thing I appreciate is that you take most of your photos of the chin being handled. Many of the classifieds include chins in cages, in runs, in collars, etc. I don't have a big problem with that personally (although some others have expressed concerns), but I've appreciated the extra time and effort to take each out of its cage. It's just so much easier to really see the chin and get a feel for the animal. I am buying more than a pelt when I buy a chin, and that approach works better for me while also working for those most interested in the pelt itself.

I still plan to answer some of the other posts in this thread. I'm on a business trip, and my time is sporadic. I sneek in a post when I can.
Linda

 

[Linda]

Linda, I think you are approaching as too much of a "pet" outlook, vs a ranching outlook.

I totally agree that I don't have a ranching outlook. It's not really a pet outlook either. I consider myself a hobby and show breeder. I breed to improve the breed. I know you don't know my history in breeding other breeds, but I am one of the strongest voices for improvement of the breed. And I consider health and temperament to be the top priorities followed by show qualities. To be honest, I haven't fully figured out what the "ranching outlook" is.

Chins primary purpose(like it or not folks) is for use as a pelt. Not as a pet, thus the old standards are based on what the animal would make as a pelt. Most chins,by nature, are not agressive. So why work on something that comes fairly "natural"? I've gotten plenty of ranch chins, that are 100% handleable. Are the cuddly? No, but chins aren't supposed to be. I can handle all but one of my animals without fear of being bitten. The female that will attempt to bite, produced one of my sweetest and most people friendly kits I've had born here.

If your sole audience is those looking for pelts, I think that's a perfectly valid approach. I don't know if you consider yourself a rancher or not, but I'm guessing you may be proposing the rancher's outlook.

My sole audience will not be those who pelt or look for pelts. I expect my main audience to be those looking for pets. That's not wrong. I am increasing learning that the standards focus solely on pelts. I don't have to exclude the quality of the pelt, though, when breeding for my main audience.

While many of us do not pelt, and keep our animals as "pets", we still as breeders, breed towards a pelt standard and most of us are understanding, and accepting of what the chinchillas primary use always has been, and is--and it isn't that of being a pet. So we can't expect a shows standard, which was developed long before chins were thought of as a possible pet, to cater to the pet people.

I haven't proposed that the standards be change. Truthfully, I'm still trying to better understand the standards and am in no position to really comment on them. Breeding to the standards won't be my sole goal and won't even be my primary goal. Breeding to the standards is not my primary goal when breeding hamsters either. They're third on my priority list even though I'm a long-time judge and have been breeding toward the standards for years. People do seek out my animals because they meet the standards better than the overwhelming majority on this continent, but they also seek out my animals because they know temperament will be good and health will be good with any problems or potential problems openly disclosed as soon as I know them. I'd rather discourage them from buying my animals before they buy than have them disappointed after they purchase.
Linda