Hypothetical question

[chinsNdobermans]

In the short time I've been attending shows (3 years) I've seen plenty of "first only" etc. It'd be strange not to have a GSC, and I don't think it would happen, but it could.

Even though a lot of the bigger, award-winning breeders are getting out, many of the smaller breeders are stepping up and really trying to make awesome animals. It isn't all about breeding just to breed, although I'm sure those people exist. It is about breeding to better the chinchilla. Those of us who attend shows, who have show side-by-side with those big name breeders, we're learning what it takes to breed that GSC animal and striving to do so. I don't think the show standards will change, because we're striving toward the current ones.

We'll see though.

 

[VolunteerChin22]

Just wanted to point out that Ive been to shows where GSC was taken by a "small" breeder even when large ranchers were in attendance...Like Dee said, just because large ranchers are selling out does not mean smaller breeders are not breeding high quality chins.

 

[ticklechin]

I am not saying this to be snarky, I am saying it because after having chins and being on forums for 10+ years, all but a tiny handful of breeders that were not "ranches" are still around after 10 years, heck even 5 years, most seem to last only a couple of years and sell out, even those who bred quality animals. I don't see if this keeps up in the future, the chinchilla industry as we see it existing. It won't bode well for us pet owners.

 

[mishalaa]

What worries me is that it seems the days of the 1000+ breeding animal herds are coming to an end. Utility and feed costs are rising and it is becoming unprofitable to maintain such large herds, especially without any other income.

I do not think quality breeders will disappear, even if we come and go in 3-5 year cycles, at least the knowledge is being passed and the lines still being bred. The issue is going to become, where do we get our herd improvement stock when we need to outcross? Small herds don't have the gene pool that large herds do.

 

[chinsNdobermans]

What worries me is that it seems the days of the 1000+ breeding animal herds are coming to an end. Utility and feed costs are rising and it is becoming unprofitable to maintain such large herds, especially without any other income.

I do not think quality breeders will disappear, even if we come and go in 3-5 year cycles, at least the knowledge is being passed and the lines still being bred. The issue is going to become, where do we get our herd improvement stock when we need to outcross? Small herds don't have the gene pool that large herds do.

This is a huge concern Mish!

I never make a profit or break even with only ~30 animals, a number of which aren't in breeding (which is why we're selling so many right now). I can imagine it is getting harder and harder to turn a profit no matter how many animals you have. And if it can't be your only job, it's harder to have that large a number of animals.

 

[VolunteerChin22]

Agreed - but I mean those animals aren't gone, per say. The determined could still purchase some I am sure. Going to place an even bigger importance on the need for standards in so many herds that are mostly mute based. We also have to think about the economy we've been in for going on 3 years now...I am sure it's been hard to make it with that many animals in a slow market. Well, this just proves I need a bigger room

 

[Linda]

The issue is going to become, where do we get our herd improvement stock when we need to outcross? Small herds don't have the gene pool that large herds do.

I can give an example from California. The three top ranchers have sold or are in the process of selling right now (Bowen's, Vin, and Ellis). These ranchers' animals are seen throughout the pedigrees of most all California breeders -- especially the Bowen's animals which are leaving the country.

At last Spring's field day, the big ranchers didn't show. It was the smaller breeders. Gary (Bowen's) had some chins for sale in the back of the room. (He judged so didn't enter animals but had animals for sale.) His animals were priced at $200 (and his good ones at State were going for $400). Someone was interested in buying his beige female. He took her to the show table and compared her to the chin (beige I believe) that won GSC. He stated that his beige would have won GSC that day had she been entered and that he had priced her right at $200. She was bought by one of the attendees and has been put into breeding. So she was nowhere near his top quality but would beat the best brought by any of the other breeders in attendance that day.

With the big ranchers going, the quality in the state will drop closer to that of a field day than that of recent state shows (and the quality at last year's state show was noticeably higher than the quality at the Spring field day). Probably more of a drain on quality long term is that there won't be these improvement chins like those from Bowen's available at every show for the smaller breeders to buy. Buying quality chins will take more effort and cost and thus just won't be done as regularly as it is now.

Mentor ranchers will also be disappearing, and that will take a huge toll over time. Right now the smaller breeders still need mentoring themselves and are not in a position to mentor newcomers.
Linda

 

[Riven]

The issue is going to become, where do we get our herd improvement stock when we need to outcross? Small herds don't have the gene pool that large herds do.

I am going to disagree. The ONLY problem with smaller herds not being able to outcross to other good animals is that everyone is in it for themselves, not for the greater good.

Miller's for example never had large numbers of animals, even with growers I believe they stayed around 300, they beat Ralph in many shows even when he was running over 2000. Doug Wilson was a top white breeder, but he also had smaller numbers.

It used to be that people in the same region would swap animals and work together, but that is not seen a lot anymore these days. So instead of one breeder needing a large gene pool they would work with one or two other breeders to set up lines they could swap offspring out of that would be complimentary.

Right now the smaller breeders still need mentoring themselves and are not in a position to mentor newcomers.

And I'm going to disagree with this as well. Basically this is saying all smaller breeders need mentored and aren't at a level to mentor anyone because they need it. There are breeders who have very small numbers that can compete with the big boys on the table. They don't loss on quality as much as shear numbers for points on awards.

 

[mishalaa]

I was not entirely in agreement with my statement either, I just threw it out there to get people thinking. I purposely left out mentioning the intermediate to large herds such as JAGS, Becky, Peggy, Millers, Hummel. There is plenty of quality in those herds to go around, which is why I didn't mention them. That's where I plan on going and I want first dibs! =D

There are a couple breeders I swap with. I know of a few in CA that swap among each other as well. I still keep my best (of what I need) and swap my second bests, but I also know I am getting their seconds, so we remain about equal. But still behind the super herds.

 

[chinsNdobermans]

I certainly think it is possible to keep quality and improve upon it if we as breeders are wiling to work together.

And I agree, there is a ton of quality on many of those intermediate-to-large herds! One of my best producing females, quality-wise, is from Becky - she's fantastic!

 

[starleomach]

Linda I disagree with smaller breeders aren't as good as the ranchers. I have seen hobby breeders beat out Ranchers at national shows Maybe it depends on the area and the shows. If I recall correctly Wendy (designer chins) has done quite well in the last few years and has somewhere between 18-25 animals? I may be off on numbers

 

[Becky]

Don't forget that many of the animals that have taken Grand Show for smaller breeders were bred by one of the "old timers".

Anyone can have a nice animal (or a few nice ones). It's much harder to have a whole string of quality animals that will finish on the top of the show table. Consistently producing quality is difficult. I think that is what is at stake.

Right now, Jags, Ryersons and Ritterspach are the big breeders out there. There are some other good ones out there not as big (i.e. Hummel, Longnecker, Merritts, etc.). To me, the numbers are scary!

 

[RDZCRanch]

At last Spring's field day, the big ranchers didn't show. It was the smaller breeders. Gary (Bowen's) had some chins for sale in the back of the room. (He judged so didn't enter animals but had animals for sale.) His animals were priced at $200 (and his good ones at State were going for $400). Someone was interested in buying his beige female. He took her to the show table and compared her to the chin (beige I believe) that won GSC. He stated that his beige would have won GSC that day had she been entered and that he had priced her right at $200. She was bought by one of the attendees and has been put into breeding. So she was nowhere near his top quality but would beat the best brought by any of the other breeders in attendance that day.

You twist things so wonderfully and obviously you feel my beige did not deserve GSC as this is about the third time you've taken issue with her placing at that show.

Gary said the female he brought would have beat mine out THAT day. He also noted that my female was considerably younger. My girl was smaller but was slightly better than his female for clarity. We discussed this at length after the show so that I could learn how to further improve her and her line. I also never heard him say that beige female was not one of his better animals. Gary does not bring his lowest of low to sell at shows, the animals he had to sell at that field day would have done well on the table because he brought some of his nicer animals. It would not do well for his reputation if he brought animals that would take lower than a 1st place at one of our state shows.

I don't think the smaller breeders have poor quality or much lower quality than the ranchers. A big problem that many ranchers have told me over and over again, is that we have less to select from when show season rolls around. We can hope our animals litter at a certain time, but honestly...they go when they want to. Then you end up with chins that are just barely too young for one show and then too old for the next, or the one chin you were banking on decides it's time to blow fur and prime. When ranchers have this problem, they just move on to the next chinchilla. Ranchers get their 40 animals after going through nearly 200 growers. I get 10 out of 10 so they may not show as well THAT day. That by no means makes my animals lesser quality because they did poorly at one show on one day when they might have been a little out of condition.

 

[Riven]

A big problem that many ranchers have told me over and over again, is that we have less to select from when show season rolls around.

Prexactly...

 

[aznmexaggie]

Tab and Nicole, I was going to say the same thing. As a smaller breeder, I pretty much bring every single chin born here that I've chosen to grow out. I don't have a huge herd to pick and choose the animals which are in prime for the show. I think it speaks a lot when the smaller breeders have strings which are consistently placing 1st and better and have animals which are competitive against the ranchers. If only I had 100's of chins to choose the very best for show... but I bring what I have that I want comments on, whether out of prime, a bit young, a little old... and many smaller breeders do the same.

 

[ticklechin]

I can give an example from California. The three top ranchers have sold or are in the process of selling right now (Bowen's, Vin, and Ellis). These ranchers' animals are seen throughout the pedigrees of most all California breeders -- especially the Bowen's animals which are leaving the country.

At last Spring's field day, the big ranchers didn't show. It was the smaller breeders. Gary (Bowen's) had some chins for sale in the back of the room. (He judged so didn't enter animals but had animals for sale.) His animals were priced at $200 (and his good ones at State were going for $400). Someone was interested in buying his beige female. He took her to the show table and compared her to the chin (beige I believe) that won GSC. He stated that his beige would have won GSC that day had she been entered and that he had priced her right at $200. She was bought by one of the attendees and has been put into breeding. So she was nowhere near his top quality but would beat the best brought by any of the other breeders in attendance that day.

With the big ranchers going, the quality in the state will drop closer to that of a field day than that of recent state shows (and the quality at last year's state show was noticeably higher than the quality at the Spring field day). Probably more of a drain on quality long term is that there won't be these improvement chins like those from Bowen's available at every show for the smaller breeders to buy. Buying quality chins will take more effort and cost and thus just won't be done as regularly as it is now.

Mentor ranchers will also be disappearing, and that will take a huge toll over time. Right now the smaller breeders still need mentoring themselves and are not in a position to mentor newcomers.
Linda

May I ask how many chins you have, how many have you bred and shown and why you think you are a expert at showing and breeding chins? Seems to me you have had chins for like 10 seconds, if you have them at all, and I mean showing and breeding CHINCHILLAS not HAMPSTERS. You act like you are the BE ALL and END ALL for chinchillas and consistantly talk down to people who have had bred, shown and HAD chins for a LONG TIME. If you played nice in the sand box maybe you would actually learn more from those here who have been in the business a long time.

 

[Riven]

I don't know if it's the different areas or just different opinions, but to me numbers don't matter. There are several breeders in Nebraska who have TONS of animals, but you don't see them at a show. If a person has good consistent good show results, that's what matters to me, not the name on the chin.

And a lot of small breeders who do win, do win with their own animals.

Linda - if you think that the quality is going to drop that far, then obviously your animals aren't up in quality where they should be either or else your animals would set the bar wouldn't they?

There was a chin world with top breeders before Shoots, Neubauer, Somavia, and all of the other "big boys" who are retiring, there will be a chin world after as well. There are plenty of those older breeders still kicking and breeding, and to me except at Nationals most of these people aren't even in the "race" in my area. Will the quality be the same in the upcoming decade? No one yet knows, maybe the BYB will take over peppered with some of the dedicated breeders from the past, and maybe some of the smaller breeders, or newer breeders will step it up. I know that personally there is a new gal in my area who wants to breed and show quality animals, she's willing to spend the money and she has the desire to gain the knowledge. Can I mentor her... for so long yes. But really we ALL need a mentor in one way or another because none of us know everything.

 

[jags]

You do not need large numbers to be competitive even at the National level. Bradfords and many others have been on top of the show table for many years with around a 100 breeding females or so. Quality is a lot easier to achieve and maintain in a small herd as you can put the best male you have or can get with the top females of the year. In a large herd you are trying to improve many lines at the same time and your best male can not service them all. It can take generations or thousands of dollars to get the results you are after.

 

[RDZCRanch]

There was a chin world with top breeders before Shoots, Neubauer, Somavia, and all of the other "big boys" who are retiring, there will be a chin world after as well.

Amen.

(and his good ones at State were going for $400).

Also wanted to comment on this. If his best were going for $400 then I have no idea how I got the RGSC standard male for $250.

 

[KissThis]

You do not need large numbers to be competitive even at the National level. Bradfords and many others have been on top of the show table for many years with around a 100 breeding females or so. Quality is a lot easier to achieve and maintain in a small herd as you can put the best male you have or can get with the top females of the year. In a large herd you are trying to improve many lines at the same time and your best male can not service them all. It can take generations or thousands of dollars to get the results you are after.

I agree that winning on the individual animal level, ie CCC and such, isn't dependent on numbers. Doing well on breeder points is. Speaking from experience it is hard to compete with a partial string of whatever I have that is approximately the right age and in show condition against full show strings of in condition animals. It isn't impossible, it is just harder. I think that the quality will continue to fluctuate like it always has, some really good years, others not so great. But I don't see it totally tanking just because the current big ranchers are retiring. As with everything else, it isn't the size that matters, it is how you use it.

And Linda, I would love to see you show at the California shows, that way we can all see how wrong we are doing things.