Similarity of Chin Shows to Other Small Animal Shows

[Linda]

Oh ok, gotcha. But, the fact that chinchillas are judged by pelt, doesn't that make it a very different kind of show when it comes to judging, then say, a hamster or cavy?

(Note: moved from this thread: http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12506&page=2 )

Chinchillas are judged much like any other small animal species. Yes, the pelt is judged, but more than the pelt is judged too. Chin shows do use different terminology, but the concepts are the same. I've only been to one chinchilla show, so perhaps our judge was far off the norm, but no one gave that indication. (He did struggle with the sapphires, but that's a different issue.)

I know hamsters best. With hamsters, we have a category of "Color and Markings." Those are both looked at with chins. Color is a big factor. With chins, having red or yellow in the coat is bad with most of the colors. Colors were termed "off color," not having "clarity," or various other terms when the color was wrong. Having poor color quality dropped quite a few chins at our show down a class or two depending on how off the color was.

The big difference on color is that most small animal standards have one ideal color for each mutation. You would not see classes split by phases and awards given for each phase (MCBA only). But color quality is very important for most if not all small animals.

Markings are also very important in chins. The veiling is the agouti markings on a chin. Veiling can be termed "washed out" when the agouti markings are weak. A "muddy bar" which was used quite a bit at our CA state show is saying the agouti banding on the hairs is poor and not up to standard. One of the last thing our judges did before finalizing placings was check the belly on each chin entered. A "dirty belly" dropped many chins down a full class in their placement. The dirty belly could be caused by multiple things, but again it's part of the about markings on a chin.

So the actual agouti markings judged are different in chins and hamsters, but they're different among the different hamster species too. The agouti markings include cheekflashes and crescents in Syrian hamsters (aka teddy bears) while they include dorsal stripes and scallops in Campbells and Winter White dwarf hamsters.

Type, which is the body/bone structure of the animal, is important in chins and hamsters. From what I saw, it's less important in chins, but our judge was definitely commenting on chins have too "wedgy" a body shape meaning they were triangular with the back hips widest, shoulders narrower, and head on the pointy side. That's exactly what we mark down in hamsters too. Now rats and mice need a different body structure, so you'll see this vary among the small animal species just because of the different ideals defined for different animals. But body/bone structure matters in judging of all of them.

Fur is of course an important component in chin judging -- more so than in hamsters, but it's still 20% of the total hamster score. Density is clearly an issue. "Open hips" or other comments get at lack of density. Fur strength is not really looked at in hamsters like it is in chins. Also, in hamsters we don't worry if the hairs themselves are wavy, but we do look for evenness in length, density, and overall length. Of course we also have the long haired gene in the Syrians as well as other coat mutations like rex and satin which require different hair characteristics. So there are some differences in fur with chins putting more emphasis on it while with other species you have more variation in acceptable mutations and indeed, in species like cavies, very big differences in coat types.

Size is important when judging chins and other species. In general, bigger is better as long as the animal is well proportioned and fit (type and condition). Our judged put quite a few youngsters at the top of the second place class openly stating a chin of that size could not be given a first. He stated which showed promise for their age and said most likely they would achieve first as they grew and matured. He also put chins that were too small for their ages down a class stating they were below the size expected at that age and could not achieve first (or in some cases they went from second to third).

Condition is judged in chins and hamsters. Some of the "dirty bellies" were due to urine stains. Our judge told us he was using the same term for both, so I wasn't sure how many had stains and how many had issues with their agouti markings. Over and underweight animals are negatives in all of the species.

So the overwhelming majority of the criteria for chins are the same as those for other small animals. I've talked mostly about hamsters, but I've seen and clerked for other small animal shows and am familiar enough with their judging to know they are similar to ours. All modify the criteria (both in how much weight they put on the factor but also in what they value as good) depending on the differences in their species.

Chins fit right into the norm. They look mostly at the same characteristics and weight them appropriately for their species. I don't see any more variation between hamsters and chins than I do between hamsters and rats or mice. Chins seem to use more different words to describe their characteristics than the other small animal clubs do, but once you start seeing how the words are used and the correlations, it's pretty much all the same with the normal variation because we all have different animals native to different continents that have developed to deal with different needs.

Linda

 

[mishalaa]

Chin shows are different because the criteria by which they are judged are purposeful. Everything they are judged by boils down to how attractive of a coat they would make.

Hamsters, guinea pigs, rats (which I'm most familiar with) etc have no other purpose than to be pets. Therefore, the criteria by which they are judged are arbitrarily assigned by the clubs/organizations hosting the show. Who really cares how perfect the hood is on a rat? The broken hooded rat will make as great a pet as the perfect hooded rat. The undersized rat is just as loveable as the 2lb monster.

Although chins have two organizations hosting shows - the criteria by which the chins are judged are the same for both organizations, even though the method of judging differs a bit. Other small animals - the criteria are whatever the hosting club prefers, and other than "temperament," which not all clubs judge, has no bearing on the animal's purpose as a companion animal.

On a side note - the agouti marking on chins is the bar, not the veiling.

 

[chin_gal]

Thanks! ) That was very interesting. Now, since the animals are handled at other small animal shows, I'm guessing temperment is much more important? I've seen chins going after the judges' hands and he just laughs and continues judging them, lol. But if you are actually handling the animal, I'm guessing it's not on their list of priorities to get bitten? How much does that affect them?

edit: As a side note, why do I seem to remember a thread like this one from a while back? lol. Was that one of your threads?

 

[Linda]

Chin shows are different because the criteria by which they are judged are purposeful. Everything they are judged by boils down to how attractive of a coat they would make.

Then why is the belly on a chin judged? A dirty belly dropped quite a few chins at our state show down a full place.

And how many of the mutations are used for coats -- and at all color phases?

Using your logic, only those pelting should be having their chins judged at shows. For everyone else, the standard would be irrelevant, and there would be no reason to breed for show qualities. Many, many more animals would become breeding quality since the overwhelming majority of people on this forum will never pelt. I think only a history of good temperament and lack of health problems in the line would be needed to define an animal as breeding quality.

On a side note - the agouti marking on chins is the bar, not the veiling.

The veiling is definitely part of the agouti markings as is the bar. To quote the MCBA glossary of terms, "The veiling of a chinchilla is the darker tips on each strand of fur." They don't seem to define the bar, but it's also part of the color on each strand of fur. One can't be part of the agouti markings without the other one being there also.

Another way to identify it as part of the agouti markings is the fact that it is judged on the agoutis only, not on the selfs. On how many of the extra dark ebonies (or other self colors which is all colors that include homo/extra dark ebony) would a judge look for veiling? In hamsters it is referred to as ticking and has a different pattern, but these are all parts of the agouti markings on an animal.
Linda

 

[RDZCRanch]

Linda...why do you even post about this crap anymore? It's extremely offensive to read threads telling us how our chinchillas are JUST LIKE hamsters. They are not hamsters...they are not close to hamsters...they do not feel like hamsters...THEY ARE NOT HAMSTERS!

You are completely missing the entire point of a chinchilla show. You've taken what you saw at the state show and what you heard and warped it to conform with your view of hamster shows. You've misinterpreted several of the terms based off a simplified version posted on the MCBA website. PLEASE, if you attend a show again ASK us what we mean by these terms instead of interpreting them for yourself!

The white belly is judged because it is PART of the pelt. Have you seen a pelt?

Pelters are the MAIN people showing chinchillas. All the ranchers with full strings of animals PELT, whether you want to hear it or not that is the truth.

http://natchinsoc.co.uk/quality.htm <<please read

 

[ticklechin]

Why would a chinchilla forum care about hamsters? I don't care what goes on at a hamster show since I don't like hamsters.

 

[starleomach]

Also please note that although most of the chinchillas pelted for coats are beige, black or standard, other colors are pelted for other items and the whole point of breeding to a standard in theory is to make the other mutations more improved and uniform so they can be a pelt. In the past pet people did not show or really attend. We have joined an organization formed before chinchillas were popular as pets. Bellies do matter in a pelt a muddy belly will take away from that stark look of a pelt. compairing species shows is like apples and oranges, I don't compare horse shows to hamster shows, or rabbit shows they are all judged with different purposes. Hamsters are not like chinchillas it is like comparing a hedgie show to a chinchilla show they are not very similar

 

[mishalaa]

Then why is the belly on a chin judged? A dirty belly dropped quite a few chins at our state show down a full place.

Because as Tabitha said, it's part of the pelt. The appeal of chin garments is the striped look they have, which is accomplished by the gradation going from the light belly, mid-grey of the side, dark veiling down the back, mid-grey side, and back to the light belly on the other side of the pelt. If the belly is dirty, it interrupts this pattern.

And how many of the mutations are used for coats -- and at all color phases?

All mutations have the potential to be pelted and matched for garments. The phases are important because the pelts have to be matched with similar pelts to make a garment. You can't have a light standard pelt thrown in a lot of extra dark standards pelts, it wouldn't look right.

Using your logic, only those pelting should be having their chins judged at shows.

No, only those interested in improving the species should be showing their chins, which ideally would be every breeder. It's just that with chins, improving them is inextricably tied with market demands - larger, clearer, denser pelts. I've made peace with the fact that, even though I don't pelt, I'm breeding to pelting standards. I am improving the species to be better suited for their purpose.

The veiling is definitely part of the agouti markings as is the bar. To quote the MCBA glossary of terms, "The veiling of a chinchilla is the darker tips on each strand of fur." They don't seem to define the bar, but it's also part of the color on each strand of fur. One can't be part of the agouti markings without the other one being there also.

You know, I spent half an hour writing a response to this, pointing out what agouti does and what markings are a result of the agouti protein and which types aren't, but it's really not worth it, especially if you're just going to keep comparing it to a hamster.

Another way to identify it as part of the agouti markings is the fact that it is judged on the agoutis only, not on the selfs. On how many of the extra dark ebonies (or other self colors which is all colors that include homo/extra dark ebony) would a judge look for veiling? In hamsters it is referred to as ticking and has a different pattern, but these are all parts of the agouti markings on an animal.
Linda

All chinchillas are agouti - there are no "selfs" in chins. Its effects are masked in whites and extra dark ebony, but the gene/protein is still present.

 

[Linda]

I find it interesting that people are so set on the fact that chins are vastly different than other small animal species be it hamsters or anything else. They aren't. Yes they have their peculiarities and everyone who owns them believes them to be special, but that's the case with all small animals. People are passionate about what they own and breed, and that's good. We wouldn't want it any other way. If you look at them from afar as you look at all small animals, though, they fit right in with the rest of them.

And they are quickly becoming mainstream pets. In this area, we've got all kinds of breeders out there. Not sure how many would be classified as backyard breeders versus hobby breeders, but there are fairly large numbers out there selling their kits at prices approaching those of the pet stores. And pelting at least in North America is decreasing. Ranchers are increasingly marketing their chins as pets and knowingly placing them into breeding homes. And on average it's better that people breed those animals than many if not most of those sold in pet stores.

The most popular ranch source for chins in the So Cal area as far as people I know are concerned is Valley View. I don't know how many years it's been since they have shown their chins, but I believe their entire ranch is dedicated to chins as pets now. They're open daily, and you can come any time without an appointment. It's a pet store for chins, and they sell cages and the entire set-up for a chin there. And Bowens has opened their LA office targeting the pet market. It's not as well known in this area as Valley View (at least among the people I know), but it's out there and people buy both pets and breeding animals there.

http://www.lachins.com/

The current chin clubs have not built bridges with other small animal clubs and, at least in my area, do not seem to have put a lot of effort into educating the public -- the growing segment of chin owners. That may or may not come with time. Or what others have told me and which I believe to be true, new chin clubs may just develop with shows patterned after today's shows. In spite of what people say, the criteria for all small animals, including chinchillas, is overwhelmingly the same. This may well create two systems of clubs and shows with some overlap. The demand is there and is increasing, and someone will fill it. Our hamster club (and there I go again mentioning those terrible hamsters) was founded to meet a demand and meet it in a quality way. Hopefully the chin clubs that develop to meet the increasing demand will create a high standard for their members and breeders. Time will tell.

Linda

 

[threewingedfury]

People are going towards the pet market because there is more money in it. Breeders know they can make more money off selling as a pet than they could as a pelt. This isn't going to stop pelters completely though, as we need the pelt to build the market. I think the reason why there aren't as many pelters these days is because there aren't as many ranchers. There are many hobby breeders popping up, but no one to take over the long running ranches who have built this industry.

As far as education in your area - if you want to educate the area, go for it. The problem is, there is a vast amount of information out there for people to learn if they want to, but most could care less. Where I live, we have nothing. I have to drive upwards of 6-10 hrs to get to a seminar or a show the majority of the time. This is one of the reasons why the Southern Unit of the Ohio Branch ECBC was started, so that we could educate those in our area since the closest ECBC show was in Ohio.

 

[mishalaa]

I agree with that. I have been expecting an anti-pelting club to form and put on their own shows. I've also wondered what criteria such a club would use to judge the chins by.

I just have a hard time understanding why the standards are what they are when the animals are meant to be nothing more than pets - this goes not just for small animals but cats as well. When breeding to improve the species, that species being strictly a companion animal, what do things like size and color and markings really matter? As a pet owner, I want an animal that will live a long time, be free of disease and other health issues, and have a stellar temperament. How do you judge that? It's why I gave up on rat shows - the things they judged for were not the things I bred for, and the things I bred for were not judged by any of the clubs.

At least with chins, I know exactly why they are judged the way they are. The shows, for what they are, may be similar and so what if they are. The reasons and circumstances and history surrounding chins is still different.

 

[RDZCRanch]

You completely missed everything everyone said and made your own assumptions(again). You use information based off of talking to few people in the area or close contacts that you are associated with through other small animal groups. They don't know about chinchillas because they do not regularly deal in chinchillas.

You say that it's good everyone has a separate passion for the animal they breed and you even go on about how great hamsters are versus others...yet you want us to realize that they are all basically the same thing.

I know you have this wonderful habit of blatantly ignoring my posts but once again I'm telling you that you have COMPLETELY misinterpreted the standards for chinchilla shows. You took them to mean what you know from hamster shows. No judge comments on a chinchillas personality or temperament or even health at a chinchilla show unless it is something negative and transferable.

Contrary to your beliefs as well, the pelt market is actually swinging back into popularity. You are not as well versed in the pelt market and what ranchers do and don't do as you seem to think. Yes, they were moving more towards the pet market since the pelt market was down, but popularity is once again swining to the chinchilla pelt. I have ranchers that are not wanting to sell me certain chins because it would make a great pelt when a few years ago I could choose any chinchilla I wanted.

Since you dropped the name...Valley View is not a ranch, at least not anymore. They've been pet producers for long enough now that they can't be considered a ranch, I'm not sure that they ever were. I've been there, I've seen their chins and I have to lament again about the poor quality of the animals there. When you focus solely on temperament you end up with animals like those from Valley View that are small, ratty, loose furred, sometimes even fur chewing animals. Valley View cannot even class the colors of their animals correctly...a friend got a "chocolate goldbar" from them that was in fact a dark tan.

You weren't around a few years back so I don't expect you to understand, but there were regularly chinchilla health days and even education days held regularly. A few were even held at my house and were advertised and open to the general public...many of which did not CARE to learn about chinchillas. I've also mentioned I've been to this "wonderful" Pet Expo in Orange County and I have actively tried to educate the small animal rescue groups and was met with disgruntled employees. Most told me they did not regularly get chinchillas so it was not an issue for them...the forerunner for this idea was the bunny bunch who HAD a chinchilla at the expo in heat and stressed and not dusted.

 

[alli713]

I hope this isn't too terribly off topic, but this thread has gotten me thinking, since there was mention of hobby breeders and back yard breeders (not the same thing I know)

But I do wonder that if we don't have so many of the larger ranches and things, does anyone think that given time our chins will no longer live as long?

I'm just wondering because if chins become a common place pet, and anyone breeds anything, then there could become a genetic mess with malo etc. Meaning that over time our chins won't live as long as they once did since more chins will get malo etc.

It seems that many other small animals don't have the capacity to live as long as chins. So are there as many issues with teeth in other small rodents? I know that there are many more breeders of hamsters and rabbits and things, like people just breeding whatever a couple times, than there are of chins.

I hope that all made sense..

 

[mishalaa]

Every species has its own health concerns. Malo wasn't an issue so much with rats. I think it's not unheard of in rabbits, but I don't know if it's as much of as concern as it is with chins. Longevity was a concern with rats, and responsible breeders track the longevity of their lines, even the ones they adopt out.

If chins become a common place pet - the kind that anyone with an allowance can buy two of and breed - yea, the health issues will get worse. But I don't think there will ever not be breeders dedicated to improving them.

 

[alpayton]

You (Linda) can compare chins to hamsters all you want on your own time, but I have seen way too many comments to count about how you sharing that information with the members here is not going over so well. So how about this...you seem to wanna talk about hamsters in darn near every post you make, so how about you crawl on over to a hamster forum and talk about hamsters till you're blue in the face? Cuz honestly, noone here really gives one care in the world about hamsters and how they may or may not be similar to chins in any way whatsoever. Here's a Google search of some you may want to check out. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=hamster+forum&aq=f&aqi=g4&oq=

 

[Claire D]

The current chin clubs have not built bridges with other small animal clubs and, at least in my area, do not seem to have put a lot of effort into educating the public -- the growing segment of chin owners. That may or may not come with time. Or what others have told me and which I believe to be true, new chin clubs may just develop with shows patterned after today's shows. In spite of what people say, the criteria for all small animals, including chinchillas, is overwhelmingly the same. This may well create two systems of clubs and shows with some overlap. The demand is there and is increasing, and someone will fill it. Our hamster club (and there I go again mentioning those terrible hamsters) was founded to meet a demand and meet it in a quality way. Hopefully the chin clubs that develop to meet the increasing demand will create a high standard for their members and breeders. Time will tell.

I am intrigued - you say the demand is there for another type of chinchilla club. How do you know this? Just because there is an increasing pet market?
Or just because of your insistence that chinchillas are like any other small animal &, therefore, should be treated as such?

I'm also intrigued as to how you think another type of pet club will "create" a high standard when you insist on making comparisons between chinchillas & hamsters? What criteria are you going to set? It seems to me from flicking back through some of the many "chinchillas are like hamsters because...." threads that you're not willing to listen to anyone who actually knows about chinchillas & showing. It would also appear that you have your own "every animal is the same" agenda & are determined to follow that path regardless.
If you choose to try to start up a pet chinchilla society with the belief that chinchillas are like hamsters then the standards of the society are already far too low.


In the last 10 years we've had similar "we need a new pet chinchilla society/group" & "shows should change to include more pet criteria" debates in the UK. One pet oriented group started a few years ago & it flopped - through lack of interest.

Using the UK as an example I am not at all convinced that pet organisations are going to take off any time soon. They haven't here in the 10 years since fur farming was banned & one would assume that a country with only pet owners would be crying out for a pet chinchilla society. "Proper" chinchilla societies will always come back to the "breed" standard which is based on the tradition of pelting - anything less than that actually does the magnificent creature that is a chinchilla a disservice.

 

[tunes]

There was a pet chinchilla society, though I can't remember the name of it. It was centered in the 'Texas and surrounding states. It died because of lack of interest. It was pretty much laughed at, and that's the same thing that will most likely happen to a primarily pet chinchilla club anywhere else. Just like "on-line" chin shows. That is considered a complete joke amongst people who are serious about breeding their chins to better them.

Not that a group of people can't get together and share their love of chins, but that does not make a knowledgeable or informed group in regards to breeding for the betterment of chins as a whole. Having a bunch of people get together, use the wrong terms, and ooh and aah all over each chin because they are so CUTE isn't going to keep chins going in the right direction that ranchers and reputable breeders have been working toward for so long.

I have to agree with Amanda, Linda. What is the point to constantly trying to compare hamsters and chins? I'm at the point now where I think any post you make about hamsters just needs to be deleted. Everybody is just tired of hearing you compare the two as though they are even remotely the same.

If you want to talk about chins in the chin appropriate sections, that's fine. If you want to talk about hammies in the other pet section, that's fine too. The constant comparison of chins to hamsters in the chin section, however, is going to stop with this thread. You refuse to see that there is absolutely nothing similar between chins and hamsters (or other pocket pets for that matter) on a showing level, so I can only assume your goal is to irritate, and we're not interested.