Jenn
ZooKeeper
I wanna purple chin...
Red chin?
- Thread starter Kawaii_Hedgie_Chin_Love
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mishalaa
Irish Chinchilla
A red chin - akin to a guinea pig or fox - is simply not possible without a new spontaneous mutation. Chinchillas do not produce pheomelanin pigment granules, only eumelanin.
The closest you're going to get with only eumelanin granules is rusty beige.
The closest you're going to get with only eumelanin granules is rusty beige.
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Essentia
Jax Chinchilla Rescue
Jenn
ZooKeeper
It's called a violet.That's as purple as you're gonna get.
no, no, no (stomps foot in tantrum) I wanna purple chin!
Sandi
non-stop poop sweeper
LOL, the second I saw this thread I thought it was Laurie posting it. Laurie, you should have gotten that chin at last years WI show that I kept calling the toxic chin! Oh wait, he was more orange/rust than red.
chin! Oh wait, he was more orange/rust than red. 
Kawaii_Hedgie_Chin_Love
Well-known member
If anyone tries to develop a new line of anything, they are forced to stray from a set “standard” to at least some extent. When new colors of chins came about, the first time they were seen, was not at pelt standard quality. But they have been developed and “molded” into model chinchillas for the most part. At least, they are when coming from responsible breeding lines.
This is in response to what tunes said, as well as some other comments I caught along the way. You all make a good point that there’s going to be some ugly in between, but with any new development there are bumps in the road and stages that are not nearly as good as you want them to be. How many of you have dogs? Do you think they just popped up looking like that? No. They were specifically bred and developed from many different dogs that had the qualities that the developer was looking for. In the beginning, I’m sure they were experimenting a lot, some of those choices turning out way off course, or “ugly”. But with work, eventually they became to dogs we all know and love today. If someone chose to undertake the task of getting a red chin, who’s to say that it would turn out terrible in quality? If done correctly and responsibly, quality can remain while something like color is developed. And I suppose “ugly” depends a lot upon the viewer. Some of us think, for example, beiges, are quite the eyesore, while others hold them in highest regards. It’s just a matter of opinion. Yes, lots of brownish-looking off colored chins may look terrible to some, but they may also be not so bad to others.
But couldn’t you take all those rusty-beiges and breed them together to make a completely rust colored chin?
If anyone tries to develop a new line of anything, they are forced to stray from a set “standard” to at least some extent. When new colors of chins came about, the first time they were seen, was not at pelt standard quality. But they have been developed and “molded” into model chinchillas for the most part. At least, they are when coming from responsible breeding lines.
This is in response to what tunes said, as well as some other comments I caught along the way. You all make a good point that there’s going to be some ugly in between, but with any new development there are bumps in the road and stages that are not nearly as good as you want them to be. How many of you have dogs? Do you think they just popped up looking like that? No. They were specifically bred and developed from many different dogs that had the qualities that the developer was looking for. In the beginning, I’m sure they were experimenting a lot, some of those choices turning out way off course, or “ugly”. But with work, eventually they became to dogs we all know and love today. If someone chose to undertake the task of getting a red chin, who’s to say that it would turn out terrible in quality? If done correctly and responsibly, quality can remain while something like color is developed. And I suppose “ugly” depends a lot upon the viewer. Some of us think, for example, beiges, are quite the eyesore, while others hold them in highest regards. It’s just a matter of opinion. Yes, lots of brownish-looking off colored chins may look terrible to some, but they may also be not so bad to others.
But couldn’t you take all those rusty-beiges and breed them together to make a completely rust colored chin?
Stackie
I bite.
Just because you "can" doesn't mean you "should". Red is a highly undesirable trait in the show world to begin with. I can't see any responsible breeder wanting to make a chin even more red.
shuboyje
Well-known member
If it ever happened it would be a disaster for quality. Every off color chin would be a "red carrier". They would be passed on to the unknowing as something special, and off color chins would run a muck.
As a further note, nobody has "developed" a color in chins, closest we have was gunning, but he still started with a mutation. There isn't a red mutation. We have allels we try to breed away from that lead to red tints, but they have been around for eons. If they had the capacity to produce a true red chin that was distinguishable as red and not a off color standard that chin would exist by now.
As a further note, nobody has "developed" a color in chins, closest we have was gunning, but he still started with a mutation. There isn't a red mutation. We have allels we try to breed away from that lead to red tints, but they have been around for eons. If they had the capacity to produce a true red chin that was distinguishable as red and not a off color standard that chin would exist by now.
Which is exactly why it isn't being done. Take a look around, even just on this forum in the past few days. Take a look at the "responsible" breeders. Every knowledgeable rancher in the world can have the best intentions, but as soon as the backyard Bubba figures out he can make .50 cents more with the purty red chins, they will start breeding the crap out of them, mixing them in with everything and anything.
Look how many people are foaming at the mouth to get ahold of the angoras. Why? So they can breed the crap out of them and make money. Quality won't matter. What will matter is how much Bubba can make off of his extreme/polka dotted/long furred/fire engine red chinchilla. Won't matter that it's 300 gm and shaped like a piece of pie. It would matter a lot to the people who have been working hard to do better than this.
I'm sorry Laurie, but a red (orange'ish) chin? Yuck. I would never want to see it.
Stackie
I bite.
Sorry to go off topic but "Backyard Bubba" cracked me up. I can just see a large person in overalls with a straw hat and 2 teeth holding 2 red chins. :rofl: I dunno, maybe I still have some alcohol in my system...
AZChins
Pro Cage Cleaner Champion
They wouldn't look like chins...they'd look like packrats. :rofl:
Kawaii_Hedgie_Chin_Love
Well-known member
Are you saying i'm being an irresponsible breeder? I'm not sure if that's what you're getting at, but that's what i'm reading...
And if "backyard Bubba" doesn't get his hands on a red chinchilla, then how exactly would he/she breed the crap out of it? It would take a pretty experienced breeder to actually get a reddish chin. And most breeders I know are very selective with who they sell their chins to, especially if it is something that may be "exploited". Ex. Dwarfs. Most breeders that acquire dwarfs will not sell to just any-old person off the streets. And even then only sell males so they are not bred like crazy.
And not everyone in the world wants an angora just to make money off of it. I'm sure a lot of people would love to have one as a pet.
Again, quality matters to someone who is a respectable, responsible breeder. It would be pretty hard for a backyard breeder to develop a red chin in the first place, so i'm not seeing how they would get one into their herd.
And your comment about the orange chin demonstrates exactly my point about wether a chin is ugly or not. You wouldn't want to see an orangey chin, but I would love to. Maybe not neccesarily for breeding, as it's obviously NOT a good quality to have, but it's unique.
The off color wouldn't neccesarily have to be passed on. Lets say I have said chins. "red carrier" + standard = off color, red tinted standard. I would end the line right there by taking said kit out of breeding.
By developed, I don't mean "developed". I'm talking more along the lines of, the color was brought out, made better, quality and clarity improved, etc.
Maybe i'm just not understanding what you mean, but after many many generations of breeding "off colored" standards together, wouldn't it eventually lead to chins that are mostly off colored and hardly have any of the original standard color showing through? We don't know because usually any chin with an off color is never put into breeding, let alone bred for many generations.
Lets say, just for example, black was as highly avoided as red. People don't want any black showing through in their chins. Why? If this was true, no "responsible" breeder would ever try to bring black out in a chinchilla, and therefore no black chins would exist today. (fyi, I'm aware that chin genes don't work like this, i'm just using it as en example)
A) Are you a breeder? I had no idea, I've never heard of you until you joined here. It was my understanding that you were a rescue. So, obviously, no I was not talking about you.
B) They will get their hands on chins just like anybody else. It's called "buying." You put your money down on the table and you receive what you were purchasing. It's the same way, I'm assuming, you got your chins and everybody else got theirs. Ranchers run a business. They sell their chins to support their business. Of course people are going to get ahold of them, just like they have with any other mutation. If only ranchers were going to have them, what would be the point? Anybody can walk up and say "I'm a responsible breeder, so you should sell them to me." How are they going to prove any different and why would they bother?
C) I'm going to bet, pretty highly, that people are not going to pay $3500.00 for a "pet" chinchilla, which is what angoras are going for, and sometimes higher than that. Right now they are only being sold overseas for exactly the reason I mentioned above - so Bubba can't get them, breed the piss out of them, and ruin any potential they may have. They corner the market right now, because they are the only ones who have them. Take a look around at some of the people dying to get their hands on Goldbars. Not because they want to better them, or further them, but because they are, in your words, "unique" and unique equals cha-ching. These people don't even believe in having standards in their breeding program, because they think they are ugly or won't sell. Most people who breed Goldbars, thankfully, won't just sell them to anybody, but that doesn't mean anybody doesn't keep trying to get their hands on them.
B) They will get their hands on chins just like anybody else. It's called "buying." You put your money down on the table and you receive what you were purchasing. It's the same way, I'm assuming, you got your chins and everybody else got theirs. Ranchers run a business. They sell their chins to support their business. Of course people are going to get ahold of them, just like they have with any other mutation. If only ranchers were going to have them, what would be the point? Anybody can walk up and say "I'm a responsible breeder, so you should sell them to me." How are they going to prove any different and why would they bother?
C) I'm going to bet, pretty highly, that people are not going to pay $3500.00 for a "pet" chinchilla, which is what angoras are going for, and sometimes higher than that. Right now they are only being sold overseas for exactly the reason I mentioned above - so Bubba can't get them, breed the piss out of them, and ruin any potential they may have. They corner the market right now, because they are the only ones who have them. Take a look around at some of the people dying to get their hands on Goldbars. Not because they want to better them, or further them, but because they are, in your words, "unique" and unique equals cha-ching. These people don't even believe in having standards in their breeding program, because they think they are ugly or won't sell. Most people who breed Goldbars, thankfully, won't just sell them to anybody, but that doesn't mean anybody doesn't keep trying to get their hands on them.
AZChins
Pro Cage Cleaner Champion
The red that is in the chins today isn't a separate mutation. It's a trait like a pointy nose or anything else off color.
Orange chins are not pretty, they make me angry when I see them. They make me angry because it means that the breeder was not at all selective in the chins that were put together. Mostly likely it means that the "breeder" decided that any two chins would do and threw them together. Thankfully most chins have been bred well enough to not have an orange tint to them.
I know that when I breed chins I want them to be very clear in their coloring, I want good veiling, I want nice shape and I want a healthy animal as a result. There are standards. Reddish tint is ugly and it usually demonstrates what I said before. It generally means "POOR QUALITY" when breeders or ranchers see it. Oh, and if it is so bad that you can see it without bright lights, it's just an abomination.
People do have access to red tinted animals. I have an ebony that I adored and just loved her size and her fur quality. At about a year of age I could see the brown/red in her belly fur and also on her head. I'll probably keep her here not because I am embarrassed by her, but because I don't want someone to think that because she was born HERE that she is breedable.
I agree with Peggy. There is a higher purpose in not creating these undesirable chins! It isn't about the money. We're trying to hopefully preserve something of quality and I don't think any breeder wants to have a bad reputation for purposefully breeding red chins. It's important! A herd can be absolutely destroyed by breeding in off color chins!!!
Orange chins are not pretty, they make me angry when I see them. They make me angry because it means that the breeder was not at all selective in the chins that were put together. Mostly likely it means that the "breeder" decided that any two chins would do and threw them together. Thankfully most chins have been bred well enough to not have an orange tint to them.
I know that when I breed chins I want them to be very clear in their coloring, I want good veiling, I want nice shape and I want a healthy animal as a result. There are standards. Reddish tint is ugly and it usually demonstrates what I said before. It generally means "POOR QUALITY" when breeders or ranchers see it. Oh, and if it is so bad that you can see it without bright lights, it's just an abomination.
People do have access to red tinted animals. I have an ebony that I adored and just loved her size and her fur quality. At about a year of age I could see the brown/red in her belly fur and also on her head. I'll probably keep her here not because I am embarrassed by her, but because I don't want someone to think that because she was born HERE that she is breedable.
I agree with Peggy. There is a higher purpose in not creating these undesirable chins! It isn't about the money. We're trying to hopefully preserve something of quality and I don't think any breeder wants to have a bad reputation for purposefully breeding red chins. It's important! A herd can be absolutely destroyed by breeding in off color chins!!!
shuboyje
Well-known member
There is no nice way to say this, so please don't take it personally, but fro
m the things you are saying it is obvious you are debating something which you have no real knowledge of or background of working with. In the real world things don't work the way you seem to see them in your head.
m the things you are saying it is obvious you are debating something which you have no real knowledge of or background of working with. In the real world things don't work the way you seem to see them in your head.
Red is off color. The two are equal, how can you breed for red chins without passing on the red? Again, you don't seem to understand what a mutation is...there is no red mutation. There are allels that lead to red tint that have been around for eons, we pretty much know what they cause and they do not cause a red colored chin, they cause off colored red tint.
Without a random mutation this won't happen. It is like you playing cards with a standard deck and expecting to draw a knight. That card isn't in the deck. As for improving clarity, clarity is a lack of red and yellow, so how do you improve clarity while keeping red?
Again you are making a false assumption. Ever since the industry made the push for extra dark blacks and standards in the 70's off color animals have been bred, and I am sure they were before. What many people fail to realize is that a extra dark standard that is off color and would never be shown is worth much more as a pelt then a grand show champion medium standard. There are many of these animals bred around the world for pelt production, and there were even more in the past...yet no red chins...just more off color extra darks. Again as I said before, the genes have to be there, and they simply aren't in the gene pool, and nothing anybody does is gonna change that.
Do you have any understanding of why red is avoided? It's not just something somebody picked, it is driven by the market. For one red tones have been found less appealing to the eye, but that one is easy to see with two chins under show lights. The other reason is reds oxidize into oranges and browns and coppery tones. Over time every garment oxidizes and nobody wants a coppery orangey garment.
Kawaii_Hedgie_Chin_Love
Well-known member
I completely understand where you are coming from, it's a terrible thing to have in a chin that's not supposed to be that color. Why don't people get angry when black mixes with white? because it's been set as a "color" called mosaic. If "red" is set as a color, eventually down the line, people won't see it as an 'abomination' anymore, they will see it as a color of chinchilla.
Again, why are they so undesireable? Just because someone higher up said so? Sorry if i'm being ignorant, I truly just don't understand what is so wrong with a red color. Obviously it destroys the "true" color of a chinchilla, but if people aren't stupid about it, I don't see the harm. And yes I'm aware that people are going to be stupid about a lot of things involving breeding, but that's going to happen wether there are red chins out there or not.
Small. I think I just misread. I apologize.
By the time a "developer" sells their red chins, they should be up to full quality, and actually look red (well, as red as you can get) and not just off-colored chins. If a right tone of red cannot be acheived, then they shouldn't be sold. to anyone. And this is going to happen no matter what. Who's to say that backyard Bubba won't do this with any other mutation? When violets/sapphires first came around, they ran this same risk, and backyard breeders tend to think they can get boatloads of money out of these mutations, no matter what the quality. But you don't see people freaking out over that, do you?
So, no Bubba's exist overseas? I'm willing to counter your bet and say that someone over there is just as likely to breed the piss out of them as someone over here. Unique doesn't equal "cha-ching" for everyone. "these people" that you are talking about have different views, and different opinions on breeding, you cant just summarize them into one big group. I would like to have a goldbar myself, just as a lot of other people would, but I wouldn't breed it for the money, i'd breed it to higher the quality. And I wouldn't have a pair without one of them being a standard, or fathered/mothered by a standard.
G
GliderChillaLove
Guest
I think a pure red chin like a fox would be adorable, not an "abomination". Who's to say what colors are desirable and which arn't? its a matter of opinion. Just like some people find the red eyes in certian chins to be ugly or creepy, others love their red eyed chins. I would love to own a red chinchilla.
The first 5 month old angora male kit was advertised & sold here in the Uk the other week. Some muppet paid £2150 for it.
The "breeder" is seeing nothing but £ signs because the poor female is pregnant again .............. ca-ching!
A red chinchilla is about as desirable as an eyelash chenile - and about as serious.
Kawaii_Hedgie_Chin_Love
Well-known member
I am not the one that brought up "red carrier". I do not know if it was you or someone else, but I know a "red carrier" has no possibility of ever existing.
I am aware that red cannot be a new mutation. I don't know how to make myself clearer. What I mean by a red chinchilla, is the breeding of chins with extreme off color and red tint together to eventually get a chin with so much off coloring, that none of the original color is showing through.
Same as above. I am aware that a red MUTATION does not exist. Nor will it ever.
Again, I am not talking about breeding for pelts. I am talking about breeding for the species. I don't even understand how any legitimate chinchilla lover can breed animals for pelts.
And the market obviously is not in search of red tinted chins, that would not provide for anything good at all. I don't want your average red tinted chin out in the market, i'm talking extreme, all over tinting that covers the entire body.
aznmexaggie
Chinchilla Chateau
No, you would just get more rusty beiges which by the way look awful.
At this point, there are no known mutations which have affected the production of melanins to result in an actual red-colored animal. We only have red tints causes by alleles which can be found in many of our mutations as well as our standard grays, but obviously are undesirable and if bred for, will only lead to more muddy and unclear-looking chins. The only way you will get a red chin is if some random mutation occurs which alters the chinchilla's pigment production and results in red pigments produced in the fur.
