Proven vs. Not Proven

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Linda

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 3, 2009
Messages
220
Location
So Cal
Many of the sales ads refer to a chin as being either "proven" or "not proven." This leads me to believe that a noticeable percentage of chins never produce.

1. Is producing kits a significant issue in chins in general? In approximately what percentage of chins do we find this as an issue?
2. Does not producing kits tend to run in family lines (does it seem to be genetic)? Do we know contributing factors (i.e. inbreeding, certain mutations or combinations of mutations, etc.)?
3. Are males or females more likely to not produce?
4. Is it common for a chin to produce with one mate and, when switched to another mate, not to produce -- or vice versa?
5. Is it common if you have a trio or colony to have one female produce and not the other(s)?

Linda
 
Many of the sales ads refer to a chin as being either "proven" or "not proven." This leads me to believe that a noticeable percentage of chins never produce.
Most often a chin being advertised as unproven is a chin who has never been placed into a breeding situation. Sellers usually say a chin has been in a breeding situation and has not produced if they question the chin's ability to produce.

1. Is producing kits a significant issue in chins in general? In approximately what percentage of chins do we find this as an issue?
This is not normally an issue. The percentage of chins unable to reproduce is similar to that of any other animal.

2. Does not producing kits tend to run in family lines (does it seem to be genetic)?
I think it may sometimes be genetic. The number of kits produced in each litter is genetic.

Do we know contributing factors (i.e. inbreeding, certain mutations or combinations of mutations, etc.)?
I don't believe we know of any proven contributing factors. Inbreeding would be the most likely factor in your list of factors. Certain mutations when placed together will produce less offspring but will still produce.

3. Are males or females more likely to not produce?
I think they are equally likely to not produce.

4. Is it common for a chin to produce with one mate and, when switched to another mate, not to produce -- or vice versa?
Yes this is common. Some chins are particular about thier mates. Switching mates is commonly done when a chin does not produce.

5. Is it common if you have a trio or colony to have one female produce and not the other(s)?
I don't think it is common but it happens.

Linda

Hope this helps. :dance3:
 
Is producing kits a significant issue in chins in general? In approximately what percentage of chins do we find this as an issue?
I think it's more common with any animal than most would think. Nothing in chinchillas itself. I've done a lot of research on sterility because I had some issues with certain animals producing and I wanted to find the best solution. I wouldn't say there is an exact percentage that we can pinpoint on animals being sterile, though I've been told that 1/10 males are sterile and someone else had told me 1/5 - but I really don't think that's accurate. Sterility doesn't just run in lines - it can come from infections, hormone imbalance, ranch management and nutrition.

Does not producing kits tend to run in family lines (does it seem to be genetic)? Do we know contributing factors (i.e. inbreeding, certain mutations or combinations of mutations, etc.)?
Sterility can run in lines, yes. This is one reason why you need to be careful when linebreeding. Even though you're trying to improve an animal, sometimes linebreeding can decrease the number of kits you have. Personally, I have had a really hard time getting some of my animals from a large rancher to produce. I've heard from a lot of people that they're slow producers and a lot of them won't produce at all. This isn't always the case, but it's just a generalization. I have animals with excellent backgrounds that produce just fine, other's that won't produce at all. I think a lot of it has to do with quality, and sometimes the higher quality animals just don't produce as well as if you were breeding lower pet quality animals (at least in my experience, this isn't always the case). Sometimes the larger the size of a male, the less they breed - but this isn't always the case either. I've also been told that animals of the brevi type don't breed as well due to their body build.

From my own personal experience - when I first started breeding, I didn't have show quality or breeding quality chinchillas. My chins would produce like wildfire - we're talking 3 times a year no problem. Now, I'm having fun getting some of my chins to produce once a year. I have two grand show champion males that have never produced. I'm giving it time since I recently switched their location, but if they don't produce for me in a certain time, they're gonna be switched to different females.

Are males or females more likely to not produce?
I think this really depends on your breeding setup and the actually animal itself. With sterility, it's hard to come up with percentages in my opinion because there are so many different factors involved. If you're using runs and you have one male to 8 different females - if you don't produce anything out of them, then you most likely know it's the male. You put in a new male and say you get 3 of the females to produce for you - does that mean that every female that didn't produce can't produce at all? No, not really. Some chinchillas take up to a year sometimes to actually produce. Some can produce automatically. It's just up to the rancher/breeder to keep up with who is producing and who is not and then switch matings or cull.

Is it common for a chin to produce with one mate and, when switched to another mate, not to produce -- or vice versa?
I think so. One female I have produced very well with one male and then when he was sold and I switched her to a higher quality animal, I haven't gotten anything. It all takes time, and when you're switching animals around it can take a lot of time for them to adjust. Changes in their diet can cause changes in production. Changes in the color of a room, or the temperature of a room can change the percentages of production. It's really a lot of work in getting your program adjusted so that you're producing at a steady rate.

Is it common if you have a trio or colony to have one female produce and not the other(s)?
It happens. Even in runs - you're gonna find that a male sometimes favors one female over the others. On the other hand, it really just depends on the animals and your setup, as well as your breeding practices. I'm not saying that if you put a colony together that only certain animals will produce - but it can happen.
 
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I also wanted to mention that I don't think that many chinchillas are really "sterile" so to say. I think it's sometimes a pick or choose kind of thing when it comes to mating pairs. Some males will produce with some females - other's wont. I guess we just have some picky chinchillas. Would you want to mate with every male that you were in a room with? No, of course not, we like to pick and choose. Some females just don't like certain males either. Lines come into play, but so do other factors and we as breeders have to be aware of what's going on to try to correct it. That's why letting people know that a certain animal is proven or not is sometimes important, because if one person has a hard time getting an animal to produce and the next does also - you know that you're gonna have a little more work on your hands when it comes to the animal, or the animal isn't going to produce at all.
 
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When it comes to breeding chins, even a change of scenery for a pair will make or break breeding. Chins are finniky little creatures, who knows what makes them decide they want to mate with one chinchilla or not. It's not so matter of being "sterile" or "proven" as it has to do with a chin being a chin.
 
There are chins who are incapable of breeding, therefore, sterile. When I first got into chins, the guy I learned from checked every male I bought to make sure they had descended testicles and were able to get the job done. I could switch them all day long, from animal to animal, and it wouldn't have done a bit of good because they didn't have the equipment to breed.

As far as females, I believe there again, there are sterile females. There are in every other species (including humans), so why not chins too? I do think that switching them up and putting different males and females together can help, but sometimes it just isn't going to happen. I know that I've had success with so-called "nonbreeding" females by swabbing them out and taking them out of a run situation and putting them in permanent pairs or trios. Maybe they didn't breed just because they didn't have enough exposure time to the male. He was too busy trying to service too many. I know Ryerson's started using colony cages for that reason, to try and get their nonbreeding females to produce. I'm sure that quite a few of them did, but it would be interesting to hear how successful that really was for them.
 
I don't think that chins are "finicky" animals, I think that people just want them to be that way. They just require simple keeping, pellets, hay, water, dust.

I've had some chins not breed with certain animals, but more often than not they don't care. Sometimes it's something as simple as they haven't been in breeding long enough.

I have a 85% success rate with non-breeders in my colonies.
 
I think what I'm hearing is that buying a "proven" chin isn't much different than one who isn't proven. With proven, you know the chin isn't sterile but really don't have any feel for whether the chin will breed with the mate you've chosen for them. And sterility is the only situation you're avoiding when buying a "proven" chin. There are other factors that sometimes lead to a chin not breeding, and those seem to vary.

Certain mutations when placed together will produce less offspring but will still produce.

Are you referring to the homozygous lethal situation with chin genes like white and TOV? Or are there other issues I'm missing?

The number of kits produced in each litter is genetic.

Do kits from large litters tend to produce large litters? Or what is the linkage?

I've also been told that animals of the brevi type don't breed as well due to their body build.

What's the brevi type?

Some chinchillas take up to a year sometimes to actually produce. Some can produce automatically. It's just up to the rancher/breeder to keep up with who is producing and who is not and then switch matings or cull.

What does the term "cull" mean in chinchillas?

I know that I've had success with so-called "nonbreeding" females by swabbing them out and taking them out of a run situation and putting them in permanent pairs or trios. Maybe they didn't breed just because they didn't have enough exposure time to the male. He was too busy trying to service too many. I know Ryerson's started using colony cages for that reason, to try and get their nonbreeding females to produce. I'm sure that quite a few of them did, but it would be interesting to hear how successful that really was for them.

I would be interested in hearing if you find out how successful they've been. I don't intend to use runs myself, but when I was a kid and my father was breeding chins, we had runs. I was too young to remember any information like how many females in the run bred. I just played with the kits.

I've had some chins not breed with certain animals, but more often than not they don't care. Sometimes it's something as simple as they haven't been in breeding long enough.

How long does it typically take for a chin to breed? Let's say I bought a one-year-old male and female and paired them. How long could I expect before the female got pregnant?

Linda
 
Are you referring to the homozygous lethal situation with chin genes like white and TOV? Or are there other issues I'm missing?

Yes I was referring to the homo lethal situation.


Do kits from large litters tend to produce large litters? Or what is the linkage?

Yes kits from large litters tend to produce large litters. If you pair 2 chins who are both from large litters you have a much better chance of them producing a large litter.
Linda

:thumbsup:
 
I have been very interested in the reproduction of chins - and I've been keeping lots of information on my animals to see if I can find any trends.

To me, it seems like getting an animals to breed the first time (i.e. proven) tends to be the hardest. Once they breed the first time, they usually breed again, sometimes in a shorter timespan.

In that case, I believe 'proven' animals are quite different than 'non-proven' animals and I much prefer to add proven animals to my herd and would even pay a bit more for a proven animal.
 
I think what I'm hearing is that buying a "proven" chin isn't much different than one who isn't proven.
You could take any proven chin home and it may not produce, or vice versa. Things to consider are age, how long they've been in breeding, how many males they've been with, etc.

Originally Posted by Kansas City Chinchillas View Post
The number of kits produced in each litter is genetic.
Do kits from large litters tend to produce large litters? Or what is the linkage?

Many chins that come from two, produce two. Large ranchers don't want trips or quads as much because they often require more work ( hand feeding, monitoring, etc ), fight more ( unless the mom milks like a Jersey cow , etc.


I've also been told that animals of the brevi type don't breed as well due to their body build.
What's the brevi type?
The brevi type is what people see as the "squishy" blocky, smooshy faced chins. They CAN breed slower but I don't beleive it's anything to do with their body type itself.

What does the term "cull" mean in chinchillas?
Cull most simply means to get rid of in your herd. Some cull by pelting, some cull by petting, and some cull by selling to a different breeder. As I've been told by one of my mentors, " My cull animal could easily be someone else best animal". This is especially true of top producers, think of Ralph Shoots for example, many animals he wouldn't put in breeding are nicer than many animals in some other people's herds.


I know that I've had success with so-called "nonbreeding" females by swabbing them out and taking them out of a run situation and putting them in permanent pairs or trios. Maybe they didn't breed just because they didn't have enough exposure time to the male. He was too busy trying to service too many. I know Ryerson's started using colony cages for that reason, to try and get their nonbreeding females to produce. I'm sure that quite a few of them did, but it would be interesting to hear how successful that really was for them.
I would be interested in hearing if you find out how successful they've been. I don't intend to use runs myself, but when I was a kid and my father was breeding chins, we had runs. I was too young to remember any information like how many females in the run bred. I just played with the kits.
I personally do not swab unless I suspect infection or other problems. But I do use colonies. Some of my nicest producing standards have been $20 culls from big ranchers that I've gotten as "non-breeders", I've had abt 85% success rate with my non-breeding colonies. The mixed hormones help, and I've had chins here that have simply just been too fat! Put a wheel in for them and they'll lose weight and tada!


How long does it typically take for a chin to breed? Let's say I bought a one-year-old male and female and paired them. How long could I expect before the female got pregnant?

I have some who were in heat when I put them into breeding and got bred right away. Usually I expect to see either kits or a very pregnant chin by 6 months, but I usually wait at least a year before moving her unless I'm moving her to a more ideal mating which I would do with any status of female. The time on any given pair can vary, I've had females not breed for over a year, but eventually did.
 
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