Pedigree

[vickvela1414]

I'm new to the Chin breeding thing (still raising young ones and not yet put any pairs together) and I was wondering how the lack of a pedigree would affect a chin, say at show or in her kits quality. My BV female Mandy came from a nice hobby breeder here in FL. She told me the story of how she got mandy's parents and it is as follows in this E-mail from her.

Hi Tori,

I wish I had more info on the four I got from up there in Gainesville and Zues and Helen were two of them. See, they came from a girl in Gainesville who’s father used to breed. They lived down the road from Ralph Shoots all of her life and he and her dad were friends. She says she remembers all of her childhood that her father would go down the road and buy or trade from Shoots and come back home with chins. When she went to college in Gainesville, her father gave her three, two girls and one boy in a short run (my guess is to help her with college spending money). Well, she falls in love and gets married and gets an apartment. Her new husband then loses his job job and they have to rent out the 2nd bedroom to help make the rent. At this point, since she was really never into chins anyway too much (it was her father- she loved kittens growing up on the farm), she gets rid of the chins to me to free up that bedroom for her roommate.



So, at the end of the day, I’m sure that her dad bought from other people too but it sounds like most came from Shoots. So, we really can’t be sure but, to me, I believe from her story that Helen and Zues have Shoots bloodline. But that’s just really a guess. I’ve tried to quiz her and she is not really sure and doesn’t’ really seem to really be driven to find out – other things going on in her life right now. Sweet girl.



Well, that’s the story. What do you think?

This story matches up with what she told me almost a year ago when I got Mandy from her, and she has grown into a gorgeous big girl. I am hoping to put her with a Shoots or Bowens male if I can get a hold of one but am hesitant since I have no real past on her. Any suggestions?

 

[vickvela1414]

This is a pic

 

[Ash]

I smell bull doo doo!

 

[Stackie]

Do you know if the girl's father used to live in Ohio?

 

[RDZCRanch]

Ralph Shoots is located in Westerville, Ohio. I don't think Gainesville is "right down the street" from Ralph, lol.

 

[vickvela1414]

Yep, says that they lived right down the road from them and they were good friends, always trading and breeding chins. Seem's credible to me, just no proof :hair:

 

[threewingedfury]

I don't see Ralph "trading and breeding" someone else's chins. Especially if they're not a well known rancher, and even then, he pretty much sticks to his own herd.

 

[Parkerspetchins]

I'm new to the Chin breeding thing (still raising young ones and not yet put any pairs together) and I was wondering how the lack of a pedigree would affect a chin, say at show or in her kits quality.

Rergardless of the story, you don't have a pedigree so you can't make up one. How does it affect the chin? They won't know they don't have a pedigree, so I don't think they will care, though other chins may poke fun a them . Seriously though, a judge doesn't know the pedigree of a chin so they can be judged as fairly as all of the other chins, it doesn't matter. I wouldn't breed anything, especially unpedigreed, without having them evaluated by a show judge to see if they are breeding quality. A pedigree doesn't guarantee breeding quality either. The kits' quality will depend on the pair put together and the genes that they throw that affect the kits' phenotype.

 

[Vyxxin]

he pretty much sticks to his own herd

That's not entirely true...all good breeders, while MOSTLY sticking to their own herd, DO go outside sometimes. It just has to be done now and again...even in the closest herds. AND just because the fabled hobby breeder was small doesn't mean he had nothing to offer Ralph. Ralph, just like any of us didn't start out with the best of the best...we all start somewhere. And even when breeders are well established if they find an animal that they like it doesn't really matter who bred it if it can help their herd.

For instance, I consider myself a relatively small breeder. We only have 26 chins right now, including growers! However, I've sold to and traded with the bigger names in the area.

That said, this does seem a bit unlikely. There IS way to verify this...get names for starters...it only takes a few calls to discredit someone...and I'm sure Ralph would remember such a "friendship"

Finally, you can get awesome SHOW quality animals from unpedigreed parents...but what good is it if it dies at 12mos from a genetic defect? This is the purpose of pedigrees. While most pedigrees will not say genetic traits (such as malo) on a pedigree, you can take any given animal on a pedigree and call the breeder to find out the specifics.

 

[vickvela1414]

Hehe, my wording was off
I would assume it is uncommon to breed non-pedigreed Chins if you are really involved in it, which I hope to be. If I do breed her, would it be advised that I keep/sell her kits as pets only?

I'm taking her to the MCBA show here in Florida in Feb. I'll have Ann Ingram take a look at her afterwards and see what she thinks.

I suppose I am thinking too far into the situation, I tend to do that :/

 

[threewingedfury]

I never said he didn't go outside of his herd at all, it would just be rare and maybe one of us would see this person's animals in one of our pedigrees. I know he has different lines in his herd, I have tons of his animals, but what I mean is I just find it unusual for him to pick up an animal from a breeder from down the road unless it's from a rancher or breeder we may know. Ralph and I had a discussion on this same subject around the summer of last year when I asked about other lines in his herd and he pretty much said that he had a diverse enough herd that he didn't have to go outside of his lines and rarely did anymore. I'm not saying that it's impossible, just not probable.

 

[Essentia]

A good bet also would be to get in contact with Ralph. If they were good friends, he would be sure to remember it, even if he didn't remember which specific chins were traded.

Edit: BTW, where in FL are you? I love meeting local chinnie people.

 

[vickvela1414]

Valrico, FL. Just Southeast of Tampa

 

[VolunteerChin22]

Im sure Ralph did invite outside lines into his herd years ago - probably not much now since he just has so dang many. We didn't get a time frame of when this "trading" occured from the email...

In any case, I would definately have the chin evaluated and then go from there. You could sell them as pets, but if your chin happens to do particularly well at the show and you pair with a pedigreed and shown breeder, I dont see why some quality kits couldnt be sold as breeders. They will have a partial pedigree then at least. The problem you might run into is that you dont know the particular genetic history of this chin so you could have an ebony randomly pop up down the line and sour a white belly. Knowing the genetic history and to prevent inbreeding of lines are mostly why pedigrees matter in the first place. And if malo were to pop up, it could be traced back to parents and then culling decisions could be made.

You will probably want to keep some of the first kits to show to see how they were turning out but every breeder does that with most of their chins pedigreed or not.

 

[vickvela1414]

Update!

Well I went to the MCBA SEC Show today and she made it all the way up to Champion Female of Show!

 

[threewingedfury]

Wow - congrats!

 

[Mt. Zion Chins]

That's great - congrats !!!!

 

[addictedtochins]

How exciting! I knew she was a gorgeous girl.