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DramaMama

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So I'm considering getting into Hobby Chin breeding. I don't want to hear all the horror stories, because I am perfectly capable with dealing with horrid situations and I've gone through a lot of thought about this and I still don't anticipate even starting until the end of the summer which still gives me a lot more time to think and potentially change my mind (generally my rule is if I change my mind about something even once I don't do it, but I'm pretty determined to do this).
Basically, my (long-winded) question is that I plan on breeding from chins from trusted breeders for the most part (and for any that I may sell) but here's the situation:
The first chin I ever got, Edgar, is about a year and some old. He's the sweetest most even-tempered animal that I have ever owned (and I've had a lot of animals) and he's very, very healthy (no health problems, no signs of fur chewing or malocclusion), very social, gets along with just about everything (He lives with a cage buddy, has had temporary friends stay with us, and even managed to tame my mini pug who normally likes to tear everything in her sight to shreds). I bought him from a local mom-and-pop small-town pet store (just outside of my home-city) that gets all of their animals either rescue or from local breeders (I've questioned them strongly on this on several occasions and they've presented me with all the proper paperwork and since they've first been able to do this I've bought many animals from them because I, like many, don't believe in animal warehouses and mill breeders), ANYWAYS, the way that this place works they'll give you the paperwork when you ask for it but most people don't really care because they just want a cuddly little friend to take home. I thought I was that too, because at the time I first got Edgar I never even considered, let alone anticipated, breeding so I never bothered to get the paperwork for him. Because Edgar is such a beautiful, well-tempered chin I'd love more than anything to breed with him. I'm planning on calling the pet store and seeing if they still have the papers, and if not if they can at least link me to the breeder so I can maybe get a lineage for him.
My question arises in the fact that if I'm unable to locate anything I'm wondering if you guys would consider it un-ethical (I'm not sure if that's the word I'm looking for but I'm going to go with it) if I was to breed with him once for the sole purpose of producing kit(s) that I would keep as pets for myself (I would NOT sell it/them by any means)
Thanks!
 
I can only offer my advice. Don't hobby breed for the sake of having pets and selling pets. Look around on the internet and you'll see hundreds. And all adoptions are not fairy dust and happily ever after.

Adopt another chin out there that needs a home. I assume your motives are to have a sweet pet for yourself as well. There is no difference between a pet shop or breeder chin as far as love is concerned.
As you clearly understand all chins possess a different personality as diverse as humans. If you desire certain characteristics of behavior from your new chin then place an add in the "WANTED" area of the forum. People will bend over backwards to RR one to you if the animal is far away and deemed a good match.
 
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You've stated in another thread that there aren't any breeders nearby. If this pet store is nearby...what breeders are they getting their chinchillas from? I would think the chinchillas (even with paperwork) are coming from backyard breeders that have no care for chinchilla quality and health.

A huge problem is that a chinchilla that is healthy and appears healthy can still be a carrier for genetic disease. Malocclusion has a genetic component which is thought to be recessive. Since we cannot test for the gene(s) involved in malocclusion there is no sure fire way to tell if your chinchilla is or is not able to produce offspring with that characteristic. The only way that responsible breeders are able to be proactive against malocclusion and genetic diseases is to know fully WHERE your animals came from, WHO bred them, and that particular animals lineage. This still is not 100% proof against malo, but it's the closest we've got.

As a potential new breeder, this is a phrase you really need to think on. Just because a chinchilla has a pedigree, does NOT mean it should be bred.
 
Welcome to the forum.

DramaMama said:
So I'm considering getting into Hobby Chin breeding. I don't want to hear all the horror stories, because I am perfectly capable with dealing with horrid situations and I've gone through a lot of thought about this and I still don't anticipate even starting until the end of the summer which still gives me a lot more time to think and potentially change my mind (generally my rule is if I change my mind about something even once I don't do it, but I'm pretty determined to do this).
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I know you don't want to hear all of the horror stories, but you need to hear and see them. You need to know what you're getting into before you start. You may be VERY capable of dealing with the situations that arise, I'm not saying I doubt that, but never having bred chinchillas, it would HELP you to see what kinds of things can & do happen...even to the most experienced breeders. You can see some things here: http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=117


DramaMama said:
My question arises in the fact that if I'm unable to locate anything I'm wondering if you guys would consider it un-ethical (I'm not sure if that's the word I'm looking for but I'm going to go with it) if I was to breed with him once for the sole purpose of producing kit(s) that I would keep as pets for myself (I would NOT sell it/them by any means)
Thanks!
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Yes, it would be unethical. If your pet store does give you the breeder's information, there is usually someone on here that will know them. If they're completely unknown...you may not be dealing with the most reputable person.
If you're not breeding to improve the species, you shouldn't breed. That fact is plain and simple. If you still would like to breed, there are quite a few very reputable breeders in Canada. It is not uncommon at all for folks to travel and ship to get high quality chinchillas for breeding purposes.
 
I appreciate you asking opinions before attempting it. However, no, it's not a good way to start breeding. His health and temperament may appear great, but temperament doesn't breed predictably, and as a young chin without a pedigree, you really don't know what his health is like. Malo doesn't show up right away, he could be 2-5 years old before ever showing the first symptoms.

Quality should be the most important factor in choosing your breeding animals, especially in your males. Quality is made up of clarity of color, fur density, fur strength, size and conformation, veiling coverage, and so on. You should see these first hand, from another (responsible) breeder's herd or better at a show with lots of animals to compare and hear comments on, so you can fully understand what improving quality means.

Chins that end up in pet shops are usually there for a reason. Breeders generally don't shuffle off their best chins to the pet shop. That doesn't mean they don't make great, loving, friendly, splendid pets; just that they're not intended to be bred.
 
If you dont 100% know his history, please do not breed him.

I am just a pet owner who has 1 chin with malo. he is gorgeous. has the most beautiful coat of all my chins, great temperment, sweet, feisty, but he was from a mom & pop pet store.

i have spent thousands on him, but that doesnt compare to the heartache and time that have consumed my life for him. over a year on meds & handfeeding. around the clock worry & care. rivers of tears.

if you are want to get into hobby breeding, please do the the research and then buy the bestest breeding pair you can afford from a quality breeder. and prepare your bank account to accomadate births gone wrong, prepare your heart for breaking when you lose kits and prepare you home for all the cages that you will need if you are not able to sell the kits.
 
It's up to you. If you want to be successful in the market you don't talk about it. Don't ask about it, sure as **** don't post it on an open forum. The fact that you felt the need to tells me that you don't have the ability to make secure decisions regarding animal husbandry without approval from others. This will get you nowhere in chinchillas.

From a reality standpoint - in three generations you'll have a three generation pedigree on his offspring. If they show well nobody cares where they came from, and he'll be old enough to know his medical history.

With a few exceptions all of us have bred chins we have no or limited history on. Not like N2343 tells one much anyhow.

In my experience the most laid back ones are sterile. Doughboy is my example... what I wouldn't give for a dozen of him. :D

Just my rather opinionated 2 cents. :))
 
I think pretty much everybody is going to continue to say the same thing over and over, so I'll let that be, but I will tell you this - breeding in an apartment is a dumb idea. You already aren't allowed to have air conditioning, how is your landlord going to feel about cages upon cages of breeding animals and their offspring. I already know you'll say "Oh, he's fine with it." Talk to the people who have been booted out of their apartments recently and their chins have been left hung out to dry. They end up getting dumped into rescue because their owners didn't think far enough in advance to prepare for this situation developing.

My bottom line is - you're going to breed if you're going to breed. You're going to breed your pet store chin if you want to, regardless of what anybody says. I'm here to tell you, breeding should NOT take place in an apartment that you do not own, especially one where you cannot have air conditioning. If your apartment ever exceeds 70 degrees, chins don't belong in it. If you don't own the place you plan to breed in, unless you have a specific clause written into your contract allowing unlimited chinchillas and acknowledging that you are breeding, don't breed.
 
Spoof said:
The fact that you felt the need to tells me that you don't have the ability to make secure decisions regarding animal husbandry without approval from others. This will get you nowhere in chinchillas.
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This is not true. The only way to LEARN when you are starting out is to ask questions, not randomly stick chinchillas together and hide from the world what you are pairing. I for one am glad you are ASKING rather than DOING. You obviously love your little boy and don't want to endanger him or his future offspring with unethical breeding.

Too many backyard breeders are already breeding the piss out of anything and everything and the chinchilla industry and chinchillas on the whole are suffering for it. I'm glad that I have a better moral compass than that, and I hope any newbie reading this thread doesn't take your word to heart, because if they did, we can look forward to chinchillas in general being destroyed.

I have gotten farther in chinchillas by asking questions, learning and pairing chinchillas based on quality and knowing where they came from. Amazingly...there are no pet store chins being bred here. There are some breeders that have built their herds around pet store chinchillas. To be blunt, I will never buy anything from them or their lines no matter how well they do in shows and I will never recommend that people buy from them. And, in all honesty those herds have not been around nearly as long as the established high quality herds of the big ranchers.
 
Thanks guys, Like I said, I don't know what the **** I'm doing and I plan on alloting myself time before I even start to do this (And it wouldn't be until well into September when the temperature cools...and my lease is over. I'm only stuck in this apartment building on a 4 month lease because it was the only place that I could find when I first moved here. Since then I've found a house that I can move into and have spoken to the landlord specifically about keeping multiple rodents as I also foster for the local shelter). I suppose I shouldn't have left that up to assumption, and next time I'll be sure to state everything 100% clearly. Also, for the monetary concerns, I plan on spending my entire summer working 40 hour weeks at the best job that I could find (out in the sun, which I'm allergic to, figures) in order to set up a bank account with enough money to make sure I can cover any emergency costs.
I think it's great that so many people on here jumped to give me advice (even though there were a few comments that I regarded as rude, but that could just be me taking things the wrong way...)
LauraLynne, thanks for the link, but the reason I said that I don't want to hear all the horror stories is becuase I've read mostly everything in there, viewed the pictures, as well as crawled the internet for hours looking for more information on matters such as that. I also used to breed rabbits when I was younger, so I'm fully aware of the consequences. Same goes for when it's time to adopt out/sell chins, I've gone through the same with rabbits, I'm anal retentive, and if I think something's fishy or am uncomfortable with it I will say no. And I know that things are going to slip through the cracks once in a while but I'm dedicated to making that not happen. I love my chins just like I loved my rabbits and I'd rather spend the extra money to accomodate an extra one for a while than just give it to the first Tom, Dick, or Harry with questionable motives that comes along.
Just so you know, because for some reason people always take me the wrong way (largely due to the fact that I can be very blunt and in-your-face), this is not my defending my motives or anything, I'm just attempting to give more information (even though I'm pretty sure I got the jist and I won't attempt to breed with my pet chin). I'm perfectly open to what you guys have to say and listen to it! The reason I even got an account on these forums is because you guys know more than I do and I thought since breeders in my area seem to be impossible to track down you people could give me some information and advice.
 
There are some breeders that have built their herds around pet store chinchillas. To be blunt, I will never buy anything from them or their lines no matter how well they do in shows and I will never recommend that people buy from them.
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So you have nothing from the Woods? They love to tell the story of how their pet store BV started their herd. I don't know any ranchers that don't wholesale to pet stores, it's the same stock, different medium. You've just got to know what you are looking for.

Drama, a better way to go about asking an opinion of a male for breeding is to groom him up, take some good photos (side, top, bottom) under natural lighting and ask people's opinions of the male as a breeder. I have seen some amazing things come out of pet stores. Tabitha, if you've bought from Gary you've bought mine and Ronda's lines and we aren't shy about scooping up an amazing find. Pedigrees are all numbers, unless you've asked.... he does renumber them. He's bought mosaics, pinkwhites and violets, so has Furball.

I meant what I said earlier. There are ways to ask the same questions and come out ahead. The way it was worded I'd say you were seeking emotional approval, if you really want to know about the animal, you seek approval of it only - leaving out all the hooplah of anything but photos. Your name did give me a chuckle though, this is a nice ironic thread. :D
 
No Tara, I do not have anything from Woods. I also do not have any pink whites, mosaic, or violets from Gary. When we go over the lines of the chinchillas I get from him, it all traces back to Bowen, Somavia, Darkstar, Shoots, Merrit and other top ranchers.

You are entitled to your opinion but there is no reason to buy a pet store chinchilla for breeding when there are plenty of quality breeders out there that have better breeding stock. I'd also prefer an animal with a guarantee than an animal from a pet shop where they've done who knows what with it.

I don't know any ranchers that don't wholesale to pet stores, it's the same stock, different medium. You've just got to know what you are looking for.
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Breed pet store chinchillas if you want, but don't preach to newbies about how it's a great thing to do. A newbie does not know what to look for.
 
WOW, that is all I can say. It puts a light on why my pedigreed 1st place chins both ended up with severe genetic issues if what she says is true.
 
Just one more thought to consider about breeding your one boy. Say he is a easy going chin and you love him for that. Who's to say that he won't end up killed should the female turn on him while you are trying to have them mate? That's one thing you need to consider. There are some people who don't breed specific animals just because they do love them too much to risk their lives.

This is one reason I don't try to pair one of my girls, Chibi, up with another of my females. I love her too much to risk her life should they decide to turn on each other. It's a chance you take with any pairing.
 
Sorry, I won't ever do it.

Gizmo, one of my mosaic girls came from a pet store. She took Class Champion at a field day and 1st place at a State Show. It was more for my experience when I began showing. Despite her placing, I will never breed her. I have no history on her. I know some people would want to breed her because she's "pretty" but that is not a risk I want to take.

Besides, when I buy my animals, I buy the best I possibly can. I have no reason to ruin my reputation, jeopardize my herd, or put potential offspring at risk of genetic issues that she could be carrying.
 
Ok I will say I have a few chinchillas with limited history but I know where they came from . Some bigger breeders aren't the best at getting info down on paper. But if they are good quality I have no issues using them. That being said I KNOW where they came from I KNOW the breeders personally and professionally. But if the animal is not a quality animal no way in heck. I would not breed the male you are speaking of for multiple reasons one being is what are his quality assets and faults...Personality is not an asset I have the meanest SOB here that has sweet gentle kits. I am tlking actual tangeable qualities.

I also agree with Peggy breeding with no AC bad idea you shouldn't even own a chinchilla with no AC. Any animal in breeding has a much higher risk of dying also so him being a pet you love do you wanna risk that?
 
With the economy being the way it is and the way its going to be for a LONG while, with rescues coming out of the ears of the rescue groups, I would hope people who want to start breeding think long and hard about the mouths we already have to feed and not just make more for cute pets. We have enough pet chinchillas without homes and its just getting worse every day. Look on this forum in the classifieds, the CC ads and the rescue ads, there are alot of chins just here who need homes.
 
If you are just breeding to make yourself a pet try the rescue near Calgary. I'm sure she she has some very nice pet chins for you... they really loving homes. If you are not breeding to improve and just want a pet go get a rescue. They really need homes.

Melanie
 
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