Necropsies

[Linda]

I'm going to start a new thread and not invade Sumiko's, and I guess it best fits in this same category.

I'm new at selling chins and would like to know how many people have had someone have a necropsy done on an animal they sold and had the cause of death determined? I know I get shot when I mention the word hamster, but I've had necropsies done on hamsters I know are sick and have serious health problems, and I can't remember a definitive cause of death being determined on any of them. Even when we know a major disease is at play (diabetes, polyoma, etc.), we don't get a cause of death. We get hints like this organ or another is enlarged, but that's not a cause of death.

Is the situation different with chins? Is it reasonable to expect a cause of death from a necropsy? If necropsies in chins often determine cause of death, can good chin vets do those necropsies at their locations or do the animals need to be sent to labs for more advanced necropsies? Those necropsies cost more than the cost of a chin (at least those done on hamsters at labs cost more than the cost of most pet chins).

Lastly, how many people have had a chin die for no apparent reason in their first year or two? You may not have sought out the breeder to notify them (or you were the breeder yourself) and definitely weren't seeking compensation, but I'm assuming it happens in chins.

Linda

 

[ticklechin]

I have had 2 necropsies done, one confirmed the cause of death that the cause was already known, one found the cause of death, the the problem had not been diagnosed while the chin was alive.

 

[Ash]

I have only ever had 3 chins die within the first year or so of ownership. Each time, it was nothing to do with the previous owner. 2 were from heat stroke (1 before I knew better, 1 was due to temperature issues during the movement home), and the third was due to complications from a broken leg (he was allergic to the anti-biotic he was put on).

 

[ticklechin]

Also, I did not have my vet do them, they were done at UC Davis.

 

[Rickman]

I had a mosiac female that I took to a vet 3 days after giving birth to twins, as I knew there was a problem - she'd never been lethargic!
Vet could find nothing wrong, gave her sub-Q fluids, and said she'd be fine!
She died in my arms 3 hrs. later!
Vet offered a free necropsy, and still found nothing!!
As the kits also died, even while feeding from a surrogate mother, I feel it was some type of blood infection!
I was also breeding her daughter, and neither she nor any of my others ever had that problem!

 

[AZChins]

Most of the quick necropsies that vets do for me are just done to confirm what we already know. The tougher ones that are sent in to a lab sometimes will not find a cause even with more extensive tests. Sometimes they will say that there were suspicious cells on the liver or something along those lines, but a lot of times it just comes back as inconclusive. I will have them do cultures and they never turn up with anything.

 

[Linda]

I have had 2 necropsies done, one confirmed the cause of death that the cause was already known, one found the cause of death, the the problem had not been diagnosed while the chin was alive.

Also, I did not have my vet do them, they were done at UC Davis.

Would you be willing to share both what the two diagnoses were and what the cost for a necropsy at UC Davis was? UC Davis is obviously one of the better known and respected places to have these done.

Linda

 

[sublime5981]

I've had two done. One found the symptoms of the assumed cause of death and the other they couldn't find anything definitive. The vet I took them to charged $60 for the necropsy and $128 to send out organ samples to a lab for biopsy.
Honestly, I think most come back without a definite cause of death. For me, it brought up more questions than it answered. The value of having it done is ruling out things that could have been passed to your other chins.
As for health guarantees when selling kits, yes I would require a necropsy that proved the chin had a genetic defect that caused it's death.
One of the chins above was a 5 month old bred by me that just went lethargic one day and passed. Her liver was diagnosed as being necrotic with hepatic lipidosis(fatty liver) and it goes on to say that it "could indicate hypoxia and would be considered if the patient had been anemic". The vet basically told me it indicated that she hadn't been eating which didn't make any sense because, she was weighed weekly(the last being the day before she passed) and she had been gaining each week.

 

[Linda]

The system requires me to make multiple responses, so here is another.

Most of the quick necropsies that vets do for me are just done to confirm what we already know. The tougher ones that are sent in to a lab sometimes will not find a cause even with more extensive tests. Sometimes they will say that there were suspicious cells on the liver or something along those lines, but a lot of times it just comes back as inconclusive. I will have them do cultures and they never turn up with anything.

We also use quick necropsies the same, but would breeders accept those for cause of death? Most vets will not have done a lot of them, and my vet does not have nearly the skill that a lab does even if he can see clear concerns with such necropsies.

I have not developed a contract, but part of my concern with requiring a necropsy is that we haven't had good luck with getting a diagnosis and cause of death from one. The larger size of chins may make it a bit easier, but it sounds like you have had some of the same experience.

Does anyone reimburse the cost of the necropsy if it is determined to be genetic? If the necropsy is more than the cost of the chin and is not reimbursed, would anyone who is cost conscious do the necropsy especially when there's a definite chance of no definitive diagnosis? I can see the breeder and owner wanting to know why a chin dies early, but from purely a cost standpoint, I can't imagine most people wanting to do it.

And I'm guessing the chin has to be properly preserved and sent immediately. The breeder would almost have to provide such information and a lab contact to the pet owner at the time of purchase or the necropsy would be even less likely to show anything.

Linda

 

[sublime5981]

If I were just a one chin pet owner, I probably wouldn't do a necropsy unless I susupected something and needed it to take to the breeder. With multiple chins, I want to know if it's something that could have been passed to my other chins or genetic since I have related chins here. As a breeder, I absolutely want to try everything to get an answer.

 

[lilchinchilla]

I have never had an issue getting a buyer to get one done. One buyer had her chin die of heatstroke(she had been well informed to have a/c in the summer, but she chose not to.), and the results were quite obvious when the necropsy was done.
Another buyer, had two chins from me for 6 years and one up and died. She got a necropsy done to find out he had died due to a high level of mycotoxins from what he had been eating. His kidneys and liver had stopped functioning.
She had him on a diet I had not suggested, but was readily available in her local pet store in NH. She switched to oxbow after and her other chin is doing fine, thank goodness.

Why wouldn't someone want to know?

What if the chin died of something catchy or could have been passed from or onto other pets in the household or even people? The most I have ever spent on one was $700, and well worth it, because it could have been catchy with my other chins or even myself, it was just lucky he was in quarantine. It was $500 for the necropsy and $200 more to send a piece of liver off to a lab to get tested further to get some conclusive results.

 

[Rickman]

Linda - in your situation, it sounds like a X-ray would confirm cause, but how would a necropsy determine "brain malfunction"?
If it was me, I think I'd offer a reduced price if I felt she was a sincere person that could be good chin owner, as we all learn from our mistakes!
Maybe I'd check out her living arrangements, for irresponsible kids, or a unfriendly dog, too!
More than likely, it was her fault, and she didn't know what to say, but I'd do a little investigation.

 

[AZChins]

I've noticed that the quick gross necropsies usually do give the cause of death if it is something obvious. You can see if there's a problem with the lungs, heart, intestines, etc very easily just by looking. I'd definitely reimburse someone for a necropsy if there was something wrong with the animal that obviously was genetic or from my care.

I'd accept the results of a quick gross necropsy if it was something obvious...and normally when a chin dies it's something rather obvious, especially if it is a liver or kidney or intestinal issue.

 

[Peep_erz]

As a pet owner I have had a necropsy done on one of my animals. It was mostly for my own peace of mind. He was a craigs list rescue and had trouble breathing and stopped eating. I thought when I was force feeding him I had ended up choking him. The necropsy found that he not only had an enlarged heart with heart disease (already suspected as much with his irregular arrhythmia) but there was a tumor on his lung that was compressing it pretty badly. The cause of death was left as heart and lung failure but nothing too specific. It helped me to know he didn't die from choking.

 

[VolunteerChin22]

I had a necropsy done after one chin died and other cagemates began getting sick - it confirmed pneumonia in one who had already died and helped steer course of treatment in the other sick animals...I wish I had known not to freeze the body as it hindered the findings. They also found some bacteria around his heart but could not tell much about other happenings because I had frozen his body. I am lucky that the Tennessee State Lab is right down the road. I paid $35 for probably more than $500 in testing my vet said. I definately think it is worth the money and time to have them done.

 

[Lynn & The Chins]

Baby had always been a "lazy pee-er", not always using the potty pan as religiously as Mr. Whiskers. He wasn't acting himself, so I took him to the vet. I asked them to please clean up his bottom if possible.

He looked just fine when I gave him to the tech, but when she came back, he was limp and listless and NOT very chin-like. She had cleaned up his bottom, but denied doing anything else to him to cause his limpness.

I took him home and kept him wrapped up in my down vest to keep him warm while he dried. He seemed to be unconscious, or semi-conscious. About 1 1/2 hours later, as I was cradling him in my arms, he suddenly stiffened, took a deep breath and then died.

For those of you who don't know, my vet is Kevin Fitzgerald, who loves my boys as much as I do. I immediately called back to the office and requested a necropsy, which he offered to do for no charge.

The findings were multiple large bladder stones (hence the lazy peeing -- now I know what to look for) and a tumor on his pancrease that had become infected and ruptured.
It would have been worth it to me, had there been a cost, to find out the cause of death, just to put MY mind at ease and not wonder if the tech had done something to Baby.

 

[RDZCRanch]

I think those of us breeders that offer a replacement chinchilla pending a necropsy want the necropsy done more for what it can tell us the chinchilla did not die from. A vet with experience in chinchillas doing a necropsy can tell if the chinchilla died by fault of the owner. Such as malnutrition leading to GI stasis or heat stroke.

Say I have a customer who buys a chinchilla from me and brings back a full necropsy report, picture of the chinchilla etc. with no findings of issues with the chinchilla's health or care. I would replace the chinchilla because my concern is knowing that animal did not die from neglect or improper care. Some chinchillas will die of genetic ailments or even a brain infection and those are not often easy to diagnose in chinchillas.

So for me...the necropsy is more to prove that the chinchilla didn't die because of the new owner instead of proving it had to come from my facility.

 

[ticklechin]

Would you be willing to share both what the two diagnoses were and what the cost for a necropsy at UC Davis was? UC Davis is obviously one of the better known and respected places to have these done.

Linda

The first chin was diagnosed with a class 5 heart murmur at the age of 11 months, he showed signs of congestive heart failure at the age of 4 and went into distress and was euthanized, treatment was discussed but he also had malo so it was not worth it. The necropsy showed valvular insufficiency of the mitral valve.

The secord chin suffered a acute severe eye infection that did not respond to oral and occular antibiotics, the chin started to seize 4 days later and finally died at day 7 after agressive treatment from the vet. The diagnosis showed a inflamation of the brain and degeneration of the eye, herpes simplex 1 particles were found in the brain so the diagnosis was herpes simplex 1.

Both chins were 450.00 each for the necropsy and cremation with remains returned.