Large cage to Run

[qtpie61282]

Has anyone ever felt bad when moving a chin from a nice large cage/FN to a breeding run??

I am about to and I feel bad bc he will be in a much smaller space :-(

Wish I could get a hold of some larger breeding cages. I made some a while back but what a pain to care for!

 

[paula1101]

Personally, I think you should do everything you can to ensure your pets are as comfortable as possible. Especially if you are also breeding the animals(s) - it's your choice, not theirs, so even if it's a "pain" to deal with larger cages, you definitely should.

 

[qtpie61282]

well the ones I made were wood, not wire so they didn't stand up to the urine, even with the protective plexi glass, couldn't come up with a good divider for the two cages other than a huge steel grid that was hard to slide in and out of the cage. But the size was fantastic.

Wish I could come up with an easy idea for larger breeding cages.

 

[AZChins]

Most of the time chins do well adjusting to a smaller cage. I wouldn't worry too much about it. You can get breeding runs that are larger in size. Some chins prefer a smaller cage, it's more cozy and they can be less stressed because of that. Just give the chins more chew toys and make sure they get hay every day. Around here I move chins to smaller cages quite a bit after they come in as rescues and they do fine. But, I wouldn't go with tiny breeding runs, some breeding runs are just too small even if they are of size of the minimum requirements.

 

[chechinchillas]

I think Wendy T. has larger open breeding runs of wire if you want to PM her for ideas. I think she gets her supplies from klubertanz.com

 

[paula1101]

Most of the time chins do well adjusting to a smaller cage. I wouldn't worry too much about it. You can get breeding runs that are larger in size. Some chins prefer a smaller cage, it's more cozy and they can be less stressed because of that. Just give the chins more chew toys and make sure they get hay every day. Around here I move chins to smaller cages quite a bit after they come in as rescues and they do fine. But, I wouldn't go with tiny breeding runs, some breeding runs are just too small even if they are of size of the minimum requirements.

I think it's easier to justify doing something that might be questionable by saying "they like it better that way." Running a rescue and having no other alternative when you have to take in more and more is different than breeding more and more and downsizing so you can make room.

I'm sure they are alright in a smaller cage, but to me, it doesn't seem justifiable to move them to a smaller cage so you can make more room for more animals, also to go in small cages. I just don't think our choices should mean lower standards for our animals, but that's just my view on it.

 

[AZChins]

It isn't lowering standards to go to a smaller cage. Lower standards would mean compromising the cleanliness of the area or giving food and hay that would be considered not giving proper nutrition. A smaller cage doesn't at all mean a less ideal existence. It isn't questionable at all saying that chins enjoy a more cozy place to live. Chins are burrowers or live in the borrows of other animals in the wild, they seek out smaller spaces to hang out because it gives them comfort.

It isn't at all about making room for more animals, by the way. It's about giving more chins the opportunity to thrive and exist in a clean, happy environment with all the things they need to live and be happy. I'm not sure you meant to insult me or not, but I have a lot of chins that have been healthy and happy in an environment suited for them with good food and a clean place to thrive with lots of attention and much to keep them busy. Chins in a cage that is less than the size of a refrigerator doesn't at all mean unhappiness or that the chins will lead a life that is less rich than those given a lot of room. It is proven that chins in cages that are not out in the open and too large are less jumpy and are less likely to fight or be stressed. Justifications about this are not my own, but those that have bred chins for much longer than I or anyone else on this forum.

 

[tunes]

Pet owners will do what they want and that's fine. But those same people who feel that chins will die without a large cage and a wheel also come on here desperate for help when their chin falls from a shelf in their 6 foot tall cage and breaks a leg because the cage isn't properly safeguarded for a chin to live in it.

Breeding chins should not be kept in big monstrous cages. You have to think of the safety of the female as well as the kits. Having a kit fall from the top shelf of a four or six foot cage is not pretty. I would never keep breeding animals in those big monstrous cages. I'm not that fond of dead kits. Whether the reason is for making more space or not, in the end, smaller cages are safer for breeding animals.

 

[paula1101]

AZChins, I find it moderately interesting that you'd even be offended by any comment I made. I can certainly say that it's entirely possible to create a "cozy" environment while also giving a chinnie plenty of space. The two are not mutually exclusive.

The reality is, whether you rescue or breed, when you choose to start taking in more and more animals, you are making sacrifices - of yourself and on behalf of all the animals. I know this from experience, and it's neither good nor bad - just is what it is. It's a choice you make. My point is only that you need to find a line between quality of life and quantity of animals. As for the "opportunity to thrive and exist in a clean and happy environment" ... That goes both ways. Yes, of course animals need a clean environment, regardless of size. Different animals thrive in different circumstances, but I'm guessing that when one adopts out or sells a kit, the hope for that kits life wouldn't be a 18x18 cage with a maybe single hammock and a few toys. At least, I'd hope not.

Safety of a breeding animal is not the same as happiness of an animal and I would think that there can be a happy medium that doesn't mean sacrificing safety or size. Beyond that, it's not anything I have a particular opinion on, people obviously do what they have to to make things work. Though I'm curious, tunes, how many kits have you had fall to his or her death? And, one other point, and it's really the last one I care to make - when you say people come "on here" after a chin falls from a 6 foot cage and breaks a leg, because the cage isn't properly safeguarded for a chin to live in it, is the problem really the 6 foot cage? Seems to me common sense suggests it's the latter part of the statement you made, likely from an ill-informed or ignorant owner rather than the mere size of the cage.

 

[AZChins]

I'm so glad that my observations are only "moderately" interesting to you. Sacrifices around here are not made at the expense of the chinchillas, of that you can be assured. Quality of life is maintained at an extremely high standard around here, I have had mentors that have written books and pretty much laid the foundations of pet chinchilla care. The large cage sizes are only something that has come into existence the last eight to ten years from pet chinchilla owners. Before then, it was much different. When I started caring for chins a large cage was anything larger than 24"x24"x18" in size. Back then there was much debate about cage size with many ranchers and people with decades of experience appalled by the mere thought of chins being allowed to be house in a larger cage.

Happiness of chinchillas is clearly something to be in debate of late. A chinchilla in a cage with a six foot fall is most definitely something that should be corrected, don't you think? In any cage there should be no more than 15 to 20 inches of a fall in the cage. I haven't had a broken leg at my ranch, I don't have chins getting injured. It's been well over a decade since a chin has been injured by a fall and as a general rule the animals get along and do not fight to the death. Experience and educated knowhow are a good thing to follow since they are much more reliable than popular opinion.

 

[paula1101]

I didn't say your opinions or observations are what I find moderately interesting - it's that you'd be insulted or offended by mine, since you clearly think they are irrelevant and beneath you and that your way of doing things is superior. I'm certainly not insulted by anything you've said.

Yeah, I realize ideas and standards have changed over the years. That one may have done things a certain way for years and years doesn't negate the need to consider a new or different way of doing things as things change and knowledge evolves. Doing something one way without consideration of any change for the purpose of bettering yourself or, in this case, your animals, seems problematic for a variety of reasons.

That said, I am in agreement on the idea of experience and know-how being a general guide in all things. Common sense, too.

 

[AZChins]

I am glad I have not insulted you, yet sometimes it's good to take the experience of others into consideration as actually being valid and something to be learned from by others without the experience. Irrelevance of those with less experience and knowhow are simply...irrelevant in a way, in a matter of being redundant. That's the crux of the matter. In this thread we are speaking about moving pet chins into breeding runs. I am assuming this is for breeding purposes, but if it is not, it is still far from being cruel to keep even non-breeding animals in smaller cages.

It isn't about new the information being available or new standards being drawn up, the same basic needs of chins today and chins 35, 45 and even 60 years ago are still the same. Chinchillas haven't changed much except maybe in fur quality and their size (by an average of maybe 100 to 200 grams since maybe the 40s or 50s). There doesn't need to be any consideration for much change since the animals haven't changed biologically or in their behavior. Bettering myself is simply...irrelevant and unnecessary in regard to changing caging or care since the chinchillas themselves have not changed except slightly in scale.

 

[greychins]

To answer the initial question -- I think the chins do fine going from a larger cage to a run. When I started breeding, I used moderately sized colony cages for 3-4 chins. Had two chins killed in those, and basically said "forget it" and moved to runs. I now have three runs, and have yet to have a chin killed. The chins that were in the colony cages -- they came from breeders who had them in runs, and they are now in runs again. Do I think they're any less happy? No. They do fine in those cages. In fact, I've had some chins that come from breeders who use runs, I put them in a large cage and they will hide under a hidey house or a low ledge or something. Seems they like the shelter and don't want to come out. Forget putting a food bowl on a ledge for them -- they won't eat.

I would personally rather use colony cages. But it wasn't worth it to me that my two favorite females were killed by other females in the colony cages to make it worth it to me. Here's the other thing -- One of my colony cages had a male and two females for three years. No babies in 3 years. Frustrating. Not a huge cage either, something like 24 x 24 x 28. He's in a run now and one of my best producers. There's reasons for smaller cages, and some of them are good ones.

For me, it also wasn't about downsizing to have more chins. And for a lot of people it's not as well. If you search, there's a thread on here, a recent one, where JAGS asked if people breed in pairs/trios. Look at the number of chins of the people who responded that they breed in pairs -- not all of them have 10 chins. Some are quite large numbers. Sure, if you are going to have 2000 chins, it would be extremely difficult to use anything but runs. But for the average person, there's a choice. Just because the choice made is a run doesn't mean that it's a bad choice.

And I have to agree with Susan, a run is hardly lower standards, if the food is good, the water's good, and so on. All of my rescue cages have a hidey house -- none of my runs do (for obvious reasons) but just bout everything else is the same (except size). They all have quality food, water, and hay, and they have hanging chew toys and some toss toys. The rescues that I have in the larger cages? I can hardly say they run laps around their cages. I'm down with the chins a lot and most often, the chins are sitting in one place. Maybe running on a wheel or something, but I could hardly say they make use of every inch of the larger cages. So, I don't think they mind the runs, when they have to go in there.

Different animals thrive in different circumstances, but I'm guessing that when one adopts out or sells a kit, the hope for that kits life wouldn't be a 18x18 cage with a maybe single hammock and a few toys. At least, I'd hope not.

Actually, I wouldn't have a problem with that. We screen our adoptive homes for our rescues, as well as the people who purchase kits. Despite these people putting down on their adoption forms that they'll feed good brands of food, and use safe treats, and they have down a good-sized cage, every once in awhile, we get a chin back at the rescue (one that we've adopted out) with a freakin-vat-sized-box of raisins, a cage full of bad chew toys and plastic, and so on. At least if one of our kits went to a breeder, I would have the peace of mind that the breeder was caring for the chin correctly. Heck, a lot of my rescue cages are FN's. Depending on the number of rescues, and whether the rescue gets along with other rescues or not, the rescue chin may get to share a full FN or may get to enjoy their own half, or one of our smaller cages if we have lots of multiples. The point is, when I adopt out these chins, most of them are going to smaller cages. I can't ask every adoptive home to go out and buy an FN because some people think "that's what's best" for a chin. Sure, that'd be great if everyone could provide a large, safe, cage, but not everyone can. And I don't think everyone should have to. Now, I do have a "minimum cage size" that people should have for a chin -- but that's for pet chins, and it's hardly what anyone would consider huge. Good size, but not huge. You know why? Because as I said, I hardly see the chins using every square inch of their FN's, and I don't feel they really need that much room, despite the fact that I have decided to give it to them.

when you say people come "on here" after a chin falls from a 6 foot cage and breaks a leg, because the cage isn't properly safeguarded for a chin to live in it, is the problem really the 6 foot cage? Seems to me common sense suggests it's the latter part of the statement you made, likely from an ill-informed or ignorant owner rather than the mere size of the cage.

The problem may be with the cage, but it also may come down to simply, a problem with large cages. I don't want babies falling any more than if the climb up the door of a run, so that's where mine are. I have larger weaning cages, but again, those are about 24" tall max. I use to have a 6' cage that had ledges and hammocks all the way across, from top to bottom. As an educated chin person, I'd say the cage was about as safe as it could be. I once had a chin fall, from the top, and literally fall to the bottom, hitting every shelf and hammock on the way. Sure, they broke his fall, but he just rolled off one to the next to the next to the next... it wasn't safe at all. The chin wasn't injured, but I'd hardly call that a safe cage. What I like about the FN's now is that the max they can fall is the height of one level, which is what, 24". I worry much less.

Runs are used, not only to save space, but because they are safer than many other cages. I have yet to have a chin killed in a run, I have yet to have a chin fall and injure itself in a run. I can't speak for everyone, but my chins are still loved and given chews and all in their runs. Some people may not think that's enough, but I'd rather have my three runs and never have babies die (other than naturally) as a result of something like that 6' fall that my adult chin survived. I will stick with runs for my chins. If people want to go with 6' tall cages for their chins, by all means. It's personal choice. That said, it's personal choice for me, and everyone else, to go with runs, or colony cages, or heck, maybe someone will think it's safe to chin-proof a whole room and let the chins at it. Don't like a certain choice of cage? Don't use it.

 

[tunes]

When I first started breeding chins, I thought I knew everything about chins too. I did a little reading, talked to a few people, became an "expert" on all things chin - their behavior, their needs, whatever. Chins NEEDED big monstrous cages or they would die of boredom. They NEEDED hours and hours of run time every day or they would die of boredom. They needed enrichment! These chins came from ranches. When they moved to my house they went from a 12 x 12 x 18 cage into a 4 foot wide, 5 foot tall cage because I knew that was what they needed. I put in hammocks and houses and alllll kinds of wonderful things that chins needed. Because, of course, I knew everything at that point.

Then my first female littered. On the top shelf of the cage. And the baby didn't know that it wasn't supposed to be 4 feet off the ground when it was first born and nobody told mom she shouldn't litter at the very top of the cage. I'll let you figure out what happened. But, see, I had listened to a pet forum, where everyone knew everything and obviously knew what was right and good for all chins.

The cage was hacked apart the next day and I went to small cages.

I also learned the hard way about the spread of disease while my chins HAD to have run time every day for an hour, all 80 of them, three different playpens with every toy imaginable, but I'll save that for another thread.

Now, I'll say this, do I wish I could have big wonderful cages with wheels and toys and shelves and ledges and hammocks, and, and? Sure. Who wouldn't? Is it safe for breeding animals? No. It is not. Is it safe for the kits? No, it is not. The person who started this thread is a breeder. She needs to look after the welfare of her animals. Little tiny kits don't know it's not a good idea to climb up the side of a 3 or 4 foot cage and then jump back to the ground without looking. Breeders need to be sure that their animals are safely housed, especially the kits, and smaller cages is one of the ways we do that.

 

[Spoof]

Has anyone ever felt bad when moving a chin from a nice large cage/FN to a breeding run??

When I first started breeding and was using colony caging, yea. But I also have had less deaths and problems once I switched to runs. Been using them for about 10 years now. I do prefer a larger than industry standard run, mine are 20"h x 20"d x24" wide. Industry standard is 12" x 12"x 20 or 24 deep. Easier to stack those, but also easier for babies and females to get into the runs.

I found when I moved to runs it was easier for me to give uniform care to everyone. Having 60 chins in random cage setups would take me all weekend to care for and clean. Having 60 in runs would take me about an hour. It gives me far more time to interact with each individual, which is the whole point of having them in the first place. )

 

[chechinchillas]

I use 3' wide cages by 18" tall for pairs and 4" wide by 2' tall for colonies. If they weren't safe or I had kits getting hurt I wouldn't use them. I love the larger cages and my chins thrive in them.

 

[qtpie61282]

Thanks everyone for your input

To clarify a few things.....The chin I am considering moving is in a large rabbit cage, the size of one story of a FN. Certainly not 6 feet tall or loaded with shelves galore, but it is significantly larger than my breeding runs.

I am not thinking about moving him so I can make room for more chins. I am considering him for a breeding pair and would need to move him in order to introduce him to the female.
He is in the cage with another male right now and they seem to enjoy running back and forth up and off their houses, etc and I thought maybe he would be sad if I moved him to a smaller area.

But Cheryl, Susan, and who ever else mentioned it, you are right. The breeding cage is a nice safe place for them. I would never put my breeding chins in a large cage with hazardous areas for them or their kits.

Hearing all you opinions has made me feel better about my decision to go ahead with it.

You guys rock. When I said larger breeding runs, I meant by a little bit, wider mostly....not larger as in FN larger, lol. Cheryl, Ill look into her breeding runs, thanks for the tip!

 

[paula1101]

I can certainly understand and appreciate the idea of safe cages for kits and pregnant/nursing females. Thank you for illustrating that point.

However, my point is simply this - breeding animals are providing a service, and in many cases making money for those keeping them, and I don't have any problem with that in and of itself. However, I do think we are obliged to give them the best and the most that we can, and that (to me) means more than just making sure their basic needs are met. These animals spend their entire lives at our mercy; it hardly seems kind to shove them into tiny cages that are too small (oh, I'm sorry, "cozy") for the duration.

Sure, yeah, females and babies should be in a smaller cage. Point taken. But I'm assuming that those of you who breed don't do so back to back, so my point is simply that when they aren't pregnant or babies or in breeding, wouldn't it be nice to let them have a larger space? I'd think so, after seeing how much they love to run and jump and play.

I suspect you're all going to go on doing whatever you always have, and frankly, not that it matters, that's fine with me. But I like to think that those of you breeding are doing so humanely and with compassion. To me, that wouldn't be determining an animal is a "breeder" and therefore lowering the space ideal for them, relegating them to a "cozy" cage while they spend their lives producing kits without ever having the chance to live "the good life." Yes, I understand everyone's definition of that might be different. But to me, that's a baseline for the definition of a 'responsible breeder.'

That's the only point I wish to make, and I've done so, so I've basically nothing left to say. Though you're certainly free to carry on with what an idiot I am and how I'm insulting your sensibilities. Way it goes. Great discussion. Cheers!

 

[tunes]

First, nobody called you an idiot, so get over yourself. Second, it takes a lot more than a post on a forum to insult my sensibilities. What people are trying to do is explain to you why larger cages are not safe for breeding animals, or in Susan's case, where you are forced to mix your breeding animals cages in with your rescue animals out of necessity.

Here's my thought on it. I think it would be cruel to take an animal from a smaller cage, give them the taste of "the good life" as you put it, and then stuff them back into the smaller cage again when it's time for breeding. It's like dangling a carrot in front of a horse and never letting them eat it. How is that kind?

BTW, don't ever go to a ranch, if you think the definition of a responsible breeder is having a large cage. You would vomit. I know of larger breeders who don't even bother with dust baths unless it's for their sellers or their showers. The breeders don't see them. Yet without those ranches, none of us would own a single chin. That doesn't mean I agree with their ideas (though it's probably one in a million you'll find a chin on a ranch with a broken leg or other injuries of that type), and I don't follow their breeding practices. My females get a rest in between litters and I do use larger runs than ranchers do. I don't collar my females, I never will. I hand feed. I rush to the vet at 2 a.m. (I don't come on a forum, wringing my hands wondering what I should DO with my pet chin who has a dangling leg with bones sticking out, instead of being at the vet's office already.) My cages are clean. My chins have wood houses, good feed, fresh water, and air conditioning. If that doesn't make me a responsible breeder, rather than having, as defined by you, "the good life" with a bigger cage, then I guess I'm not a responsible breeder. <shrugs>

 

[qtpie61282]

BTW, don't ever go to a ranch, if you think the definition of a responsible breeder is having a large cage. You would vomit. I know of larger breeders who don't even bother with dust baths unless it's for their sellers or their showers. The breeders don't see them. Yet without those ranches, none of us would own a single chin. That doesn't mean I agree with their ideas (though it's probably one in a million you'll find a chin on a ranch with a broken leg or other injuries of that type), and I don't follow their breeding practices. My females get a rest in between litters and I do use larger runs than ranchers do. I don't collar my females, I never will. I hand feed. I rush to the vet at 2 a.m. (I don't come on a forum, wringing my hands wondering what I should DO with my pet chin who has a dangling leg with bones sticking out, instead of being at the vet's office already.) My cages are clean. My chins have wood houses, good feed, fresh water, and air conditioning. If that doesn't make me a responsible breeder, rather than having, as defined by you, "the good life" with a bigger cage, then I guess I'm not a responsible breeder. <shrugs>

Well said!!!

I didn't mean for my question to start a heated debate.
I may speak for every breeder on here when I say we do not do this to make money, we will never break even with breeding and they are not just there to provide a service for us. We have a love for these animals, we breed to better the genes and better the species through calculated pairings, we treat them as if they are family. In no way are any of our animals at any point living a poor life, regardless of the size of cage.

If I move all of my breeding chins (male or female) to larger cages during their break between breeding, it would be cruel to then move them back and forth like that. Not to mention the amount of cages I would need, space and what not, to be able to move them all to larger cages for a few months or more, and then back just doesn't make sense.

I have pictures of the rooms where Ryerson's has their breeding cages and if you ever saw the ranch in person, you would hate it if you think small cages are cruel. And yes, when I walk through there, hardly any of the adults are groomed or dusted. But it doesn't make these ranches a horrible place for a chin. I would love to have my chins cared for by Ryersons or any other top notch breeder! They are the reason any of us can do what we love and work with these animals.

I used to use collars, but I have adjusted how I use the runs so I don't have to put collars on the females. My chins are well cared for and just because they are living in breeding cages means nothing. The ones I have retired are in FN cages, and kits that grow out are also in FN cages or large rabbit cages. Not every single chin of mine is in a breeding cage. Only the breeders. And they can move between two of the breeding cages, the male and female have a run hole between each cage and I leave it open for them both to hop in and out of, so they aren't confined to one small cage.