Dogs fighting.. Advice needed.

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Leah

Leah

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2009
Messages
99
Location
Georgia
I'm sure some of you remember about a year and a half ago when I brought two puppies home (Lily, a pit bull, and Zoie, a black lab). Ever since we brought them home, they've been thick as thieves... Up until about a month ago. Just for some back information, Zoie sleeps with my mom downstairs and Lily sleeps in my room on the 3rd floor. Lily and Zo used to be able to go in each other's rooms and be around each other all the time and love each other.

Recently, Zo has became very possessive when another dog enters my mom's room, and I guess Lily's instinct is when someone growls at her, she growls back... And you can just see it esclade from there. At first, it was just them growling at each other and we would break them up and get them away before anything happened (and this would only happen when Lily would come into my mom's room). We started putting up a baby gate at the hallway to my mom's room, and everywhere else they would be fine. Eventually it got where they would growl at each other everywhere, including the backyard. Ever since, we've kept them completely apart. Yesterday, however, my mom was home alone and somehow Zo pushed the baby gate down (apparently it wasn't latched properly) and they got into a terrible fight. My mom called me to come home from class to take Lily to the vet.

The vet said she didn't need stitches, but her head is covered in puncture wounds from Zo's teeth. They ended up shaving her head (to be able to clean everything) gave her antibiotics and an anti-inflammitory. Zo didn't get hurt at all, mainly because Zoie is a HUGE lab (she outweighs Lily easily by 40lbs). We don't know what to do anymore. Lily is my baby and seeing her hurt is just killing me. Everyone that I've told what happened to is so surprised that Lily is the hurt one because "you would think the pit bull would be the vicious, blood thirsty one." It kills me when people say that. Lily is the sweetest dog in the world.

I'm moving out soon (hopefully before Christmas), so I just need some advice on what to do until then. We are, obviously, going to take extreme precaution so that we can keep them apart. The vet suggested getting either shock collars or pepper spray, just in case something happens (like yesterday) that couldn't be helped. Does anyone have any suggestions? Or even some sort or explanation on how they just started hating each other after almost 2 years?? We have 5 other dogs, and they both get along with every one of them except for each other.
 
I know spaying/neutering works well for males, supposedly, but I'm unsure about females.
I once worked at a shop that had 3 male and 6 female dobes. When/if the males got into it, it'd be mostly puncture wounds, but, if the females fought, they always needed more - long gaping wounds requiring multiple stitches! And dogs don't forget who/what attacked them!
I'd just keep them separated, best you can, until you move out.
 
Sounds like Zo has become very jealous and doesn't want another animal near your mom. So when Lily tries to go in the room, they fight, probably because there isn't a pack order established between the dogs yet. Or maybe there is a pack order but when it comes to your mom, they are just determined to duke it out being head strong.

Could be wrong, but that's what it sounds like to me. [i had that same exact problem]
 
This might sound stupid, but have you tried getting Ceasar Milan's book (he's the dog whisperer), and he just seems to know all of the tricks of the trade. I read one of his books, and it really helps me to understand why my dogs act the way they do. Also, they can help you to figure out how to correct an unwanted problem. I highly suggest his books. You can get them at walmart or meijer.
 
I second the Ceasar Milan books. He is awesome. I have read his books and he really helps you understand why dogs act the way that they do. But, I've read lots of books on the behavior of dogs and let me tell ya what I think you should do and what's causing it. It is defintely a pack order thing like jmdebb said. Zo has decided that she is the boss, plan and simple. You're not the leader, your mom isn't and definitely not poor lily. In the wild there is always a pack leader. The pack leader gets to deceide who does what and when. By Zo being allowed to sleep bed with your mom she has decieded that she is special and LIl is nothing. In the wild the dogs on the lower end of order are not allowed to sleep with the pack leader. They are chased away. Everyone always thinks of dogs as are cute little pets and forgets their origins. They too still have that wild instinct. A couple ways to fix this: 1- Zo should not be allowed to sleep in bed with your mom anymore and should not be allowed in her room period. Your mom needs to be the one to put Zo out and then allow LIL to go in. This will show Zo that SHE (your mom) is the leader not ZO. After doing this for a couple of nights Zo will start to realize that she is not the boss. It is your mother who deciedes. 2-When Zo starts growling at Lil you need to yell at Zo and a stern voice and make Zo lay on her back, even if you have to physically put her and hold her in that position. That is submissiveness to a dog. When a dog is forced to lay in that position it is forced to be submissive. You can do this even outside of the bedroom with the two dogs. Make Zo lay on her back and allow Lil to stand over her. Also have your mom do the same. Do this throughout the day even without Lil present. It should force the pack order back into place. from what I've read and such this should work. at least give it a try. Be careful while doing these things though. I don't want to see anyone hurt. I would have 2 people present and both dogs on a leash. I hope this helps!
 
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Rickman said:
I know spaying/neutering works well for males, supposedly, but I'm unsure about females.
I once worked at a shop that had 3 male and 6 female dobes. When/if the males got into it, it'd be mostly puncture wounds, but, if the females fought, they always needed more - long gaping wounds requiring multiple stitches! And dogs don't forget who/what attacked them!
I'd just keep them separated, best you can, until you move out.
Click to expand...

Off topic, but this was a recipe for disaster anyway, Dobermans (males particularly) are notoriously same-sex aggressive.

As far as the OPs dogs - they are both reaching maturity at this time. Dog aggression, possessiveness and the like often rear their ugly little heads between 1.5-2 years of age. Additionally, pack order is often restructured when dogs hit maturity.

You need to keep the dogs separated, even if that involves crating them when they cannot be completely supervised and separate. Crating dogs and rotating them in and out of them so that they are not out at the same time is a fact of life in some households. Luckily, it would not have to be a permanent one if you are moving out soon. Nothing in life is free (NILIF) may also be a good idea for your mom's dog, so that this possessiveness doesn't escalate.

And please be careful with some of the above stated methods, such as putting a dog on their back (alpha rolls). This may work for people such as Caesar Milan but it is not the end all to every problem and can lead to additional problems. You don't have to make a dog afraid of you to make them obedient and well-behaved. If you want to consult a trainer, do it in person, not in a book
 
Invest in a break stick. Won't help if the lab goes after the pit again, but will be a life saver if the pit bull fights back.

http://catchdogreleasetool.viviti.com/

When dogs get to this point, normally there is no going back. Keep them seperated at all times, never trust them alone. It may not hurt to get help from a trainer, specifically one who is used to working with Bully breeds as well since one is a pit bull mix.

No, it wasn't her fault. However you need to be fully prepared incase she does decide to protect her self next time. As with anything, having two female dogs in a house can cause problems. Normally it's suggested to go opposite sexes.
 
I'd be inclined to think that the behavior started because Zoie has become possessive of your mom. And then it's escalated from there.

Which would worry me that even if you prevent the dogs from fighting by separating them permanently, that the behavior may escalate to aggression against humans as well.

Granted, I'm no expert on dog behavior, but the first thing I would do is to stop allowing her to sleep in your mom's room with her if she's still allowed to do that. How is your mom with the dog? Is she dominant over her? I agree that starting the NILIF with your mom and Zoie would be a good step.
 
ChinsNdobermans,
I was not suggesting the book as a bible to training your dog-not saying that once you read this, your problems will all go away, but she might get a better understanding of why the dogs are acting like this, so she can figure out how to avoid this situation. It is a starting point at least.
 
Thank you for all the advice given so far. I will check out Caesar's books and also have googled NILIF.

Zoie is VERY possessive over my mom with the other dogs, and even us humans. If anyone goes into my mom's room, Zo will growl and bark at them (started with my dad, now it's all of us). Once you're in the room, she will stop unless you're one of the dogs, then she will jump off the bed and pretty much physically force out of the room.

I don't really know how Lily reacted to the fight yesterday because I wasn't here, but when they got into it in the backyard a few weeks ago (this was before they started fighting around each other all the time), Lily did her best to fight back by grabbing Zo's legs. Luckily everyone was home when that incident happened, so we were able to pull them apart rather quickly. My mom did get bit from that one, she had a gash about a half inch wide on her hand. Since that happened, we haven't allowed them around each other at all.

As suggested by my vet, we went and bought something called "Muzzle." It's some sort of pepper spray spefically designed for dogs. Of course, we aren't going to allow them around each other at all anymore, but we are just trying to anticipate another incident like yesterday.

I really like NILIF from what I've read. When I move out, I'm taking Lily and our other black lab, Cash. I know once we move out away from the rest of everyone, it will be a lot easier to enforce training. I will also suggest the training to my mom, however, I seriously doubt that my mom will stop letting Zoie sleep in her room... just because I know my mom. Who knows though. It's gotten to the point now that we're all desperate to find some sort of resolution to this.

I'm going to keep researching training tips for aggressive dogs. Thanks again for all the help.
 
Perhaps you can express how dangerous this really is to your mom and she will be willing to work with Zoie. She really needs to not allow Zoie to be possessive over her. That's only going to escalate, and it's already showing itself with humans. That's a horrible accident waiting to happen.
 
Maybe you really should try to find a local dog trainer fast. That way they can recommend some things to your mom to help improve the situation quick. Maybe if your mom hears suggestions from a professional she's more readily take the advice? I really hate to see anything bad happen to anyone or to Lil. Sometimes if you contact your local SPCA they can tell you who they use. Sometimes when animals enter shelters they have behavioral issues and they seek out a trainer before adopting them out. Mean time, your mom really needs to keep her out of her room. The aggression is only going to get worse as time goes on if it's not stopped. I'm not a pro, but I've had lots of dogs in my time and have always read up on them. Please get someone to help intervene quick.
 
chinsNdobermans said:
As far as the OPs dogs - they are both reaching maturity at this time. Dog aggression, possessiveness and the like often rear their ugly little heads between 1.5-2 years of age. Additionally, pack order is often restructured when dogs hit maturity.

You don't have to make a dog afraid of you to make them obedient and well-behaved. If you want to consult a trainer, do it in person, not in a book
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This is very true. at a certain age, certain breeds will fight for alpha position, their has to be a pack order and if both dogs are dominent they will fight.

and dee is right with not making a dog afraid of you, that is the last thing you want to do, you want respect not fear, and it can be done.

and remember in the pack order of owner and dogs, the human is always the alpha. do not let a dog be on the same level as you, for instance, if you let them on the furnifture that is telling a dog they are level with you....[if i worded that right]..
 
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A simple way to maintain yourself as the alpha over the dog is to always make yourself first - you go to the bathroom first, you go in and out of the house first, you eat first, etc, as well as making them work (do a command) for anything they want. My small dogs are allowed on the furniture but they know I'm their "alpha" through my doing the above things.
 
chinsNdobermans said:
A simple way to maintain yourself as the alpha over the dog is to always make yourself first - you go to the bathroom first, you go in and out of the house first, you eat first, etc, as well as making them work (do a command) for anything they want. My small dogs are allowed on the furniture but they know I'm their "alpha" through my doing the above things.
Click to expand...

my german shephard is allowed on the furniture too..... but she knows i am alpha and she is not a dominating dog tho... my sister always harasses me about that tho...hehehehehe. [she's a really good trainer]..
 
I certainly wasn't suggesting to make your dogs afraid of you in anyway. I don't hink that alpha rolls are harming your dog, nor does it make your dog afraid of you. It just helps reestablish pack order. I have 2 dogs and have never hurt them and they are very well behaved. They have never growled at me or my children, are allowed to sleep in bed with me and sit on the couch. They also do not fight, never have. They know they are on the level as each other. They'll even eat out of the same bowl without aggression.They know who the boss is and they know there's no point in fighting, because neither are going to take my place. When I say down, they get down. When I say no, they stop. I was in no way insinuated that you harm them physically or emotionally if that's what you thought I had met. It is harder to have that kind of control over some dogs though. They just want to be dominant.
 
Alpha rolls should not be attempted by inexperienced dog people, period. It's great that your dogs never fight and can eat out of the same bowl but guess what? Dogs that are owned by some amazingly good trainers and owners often cannot. Especially when it comes to food. I think no one should resort to alpha rolls and such training methods until they've sought out every other possible means and in this case I don't think it is a good idea.
 
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