Do The Best Quality Kits Come From The First Litters

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chechinchillas

chechinchillas

hmmmmmmm
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
546
Location
CIRCLEVILLE, OHIO
I recently talked to a guys who studies genes, breeding, etc.
(not just chinchillas). He told me that studies have shown that a female's body will release it's best quality eggs first and as the female ages it will continue to release the best egg it has to choose from. I was also told by my mentor that your best quality kits are going to be in your first litters from a female. Do you agree? Have you noticed the best quality in the first few litters? On a personal note, I am the last in a family of 4 kids (this kind of bugs me).
 
I disagree, I know that I'm much better than my brother! :p

The only thing that I can think of with this is that as the female ages the eggs get older. A female is born with all of the eggs she will ever have. This is why as women get older they have higher risks for children with birth defects, the eggs are older.

Over all I totally disagree. I've had females who are 10 years old produce very high quality animals. In fact an older female I had who went to another breeder produced a champion animal when she was around 12...
 
I have no clue it just depends on the genes.

I have one female that produced 4 litters. They all have the same dad
1st litter - 1st place to rcc - litter of 1
2nd litter - 1st place to rcc - litter of 1
3rd litter - 1st place to cc - litter of 1
4th litter - 1st place to RGSC - litter of 2

sometimes these little ones will place 2nd

1 female same dad as above
1st litter - 4 mths old and 7 mths old RGSC

1 female same dad as above
1st litter - cc at 5 mths old
 
I don't think so.. from my experience, it's just a pot luck. Sometimes I become discouraged from the first litter, split up the pairing and I'll have a breedback and think 'OMG WHY did I split up this pairing'? I have had some crappy animals born out of first litters and then second and third litters turned out great, and vice versa, it depends on a lot of factors.
 
I've found it varies for each chinchilla. Mostly though, I've noticed some of my best animals were the third or fourth litters for their moms. First litters for me have never been as nice as the subsequent litters.

The body does not have the ability to find the most viable oocyte in the ovary and release that one first. Like you said though, it can choose the best available oocyte at the time of ovulation...which doesn't mean the "best" oocytes will be released for the first litter. In people, the first child is usually "superior" because we often wait a year or more between children and like Nicole mentioned, the older you get the older your eggs get. The older anything gets, the less "perfect" it gets as we make a trade off between energy and reproduction.
 
Also if you look at it like this, a chin may come into her first heat at say 3 months ( I know that's fairly young ) but not be actually bred until she's 14 months, that means that 11 groups of the best eggs were released and not fertilized. What about a female who is not bred until she is 2 or 3, by this theory she would automatically have less quality of offspring than a female bred at 5 months...
 
I don't believe that.... Most ranchers say the first litter you should not judge the pairing by because sometimes the first litter is the worst...In the end genetics are a bit of a roll of the dice. You get good, bad and everything in between.
 
The quality of an egg does not equal quality of offspring. The quality or viability of an egg really has nothing to do with what you see when it's born. It's having the best genes that matters. And remember, half the genes come from the sperm, so when a female goes into ovulation and releases the egg it wouldn't even matter if the body could somehow "choose" the best egg, because the other half of the genes coming from the sperm could completely cancel out the egg's "goodness".

Also, remember the viability of a females oocytes as she ages is not a linear relationship. I believe the fertility in women is pretty steady until you hit 30ish then it sharply decreases as you get older after that. So with chinchillas, who knows when their fertility actually plummets. I'd hazard a guess that in a fertile female chinchilla the eggs are of good "quality" until at least 7 or 8 years old.
 
I have heard people say this about dogs but I just dont believe that would have anything to do with it.
 
While a good majority of my best animals HAVE come from first litters...I feel that it is largely coincidence and not "hard science". As many mentioned, the quality of egg shouldn't differ much in early breeding years in any species. Granted, in later years (as with the increased risk of Downs Syndrome and other genetic disorders) eggs are not so much lower quality due to better quality being all used up...it's more the age of the eggs at that point. Likewise, it's quite a valid point that quality of offspring is half influenced by the sperm which has nothing to do with the egg quality.

SO, while I find it an interesting topic and slighly coincidental that at first glance my own experiences DO confirm that hypothesis...I feel it is merely coincidental. Aside from that you always will have the nature v. nurture debate that would question how consistent the environment before/during/after ovulation and conception was ;)
 
I totally disagree with the first litter being the best, that is why I keep a lot of my older breeders. I have had many females have better offspring later in life. Some of them were with different males which I think makes much more of a difference than which litter they are out of. I am of the opinion egg quality has much less to do with the quality of the animal and the actual genes of the pair and how they link up play a much higher role.
 
Quality offspring can come from any litter, any time from a female. I had -RM V1 born in 1989 was in breeding and producing offspring till 2009. Her best quality animal she produced was F38 born in 1997 when V1 was 8 years old. F38 was in breeding for 12 years, the last 7 of those she was mated to the same male. She produced several top show animals with this male. Her very best offspring was -RM V20 2009 ECBC Nat'l GSC standard. F38 was 11 years old when she had V20. I also purchased a female from another breeder a few years ago. I bought the female because of her genetic lines and the fact that I had a male already from this same breeder with related sire lines. I put these 2 together and first male baby was -RM S43 2007 ECBC Nat'l GSC. I believe I had at least 4 more litters out of this pair but, never another one as good as that first male baby S43. You just never know when the best baby will come until the animal dies or stops breeding. Then and only then you will know when that female produced her best quality offspring. It is different with every female.
 
That makes sense Jags because even if it was the female's first litter, if the quality of her genes or the males is mediocre then it really wouldn't matter if it was one of her early eggs/litters or an older egg/litter. When I posted I should have put from the same pairing of a high quality male and female. Excellent details Mark, that certainly disproves that theory.
 
The oldest female I have in breeding produced the 2012 ECBC National Grand Show Champion Mutation, thus I never give her a hard time about her age! I have had pairs produce highly consistent, quality offspring from their very first litter together to their most recent. I am too quick to judge, sometimes, and if I dislike a first litter I will split up the pair. Patience may be a virtue, but its one I have to work on A LOT! I want to see something special in a cross from the very beginning, so I probably miss out on all the fabulous offspring they could have had given the chance. My excuse for this lack of patience is my small herd size. I need "special" right away or the pairing feels like a waste of space. ;) Sometimes I see something in the initial offspring that makes me think "Oooo, this mom could do great things with so-n-so!" and off she goes to the new guy.

When I was working on an Arabian horse farm in college, handling the stallions, the stud owner commented that as a stallion ages he produces more colts to "ensure his legacy". Cheryl, you now have me wondering if chinnies do that!! I may have to start a new spreadsheet, darn it.
 
I'm right there with you Wendy. I'm a bit impatient and too often separate a pair before I see what they're really capable of. Possibly missing out on the quality they COULD produce if left together. I too attribute it to a small herd, you need to see and and quick...because you don't have the time/space/resources to wait on what COULD be. Likewise, I too will see a first litter and think...I bet...paired with so and so the kits would be stellar...and off they go...and then I turn out to be dead wrong and have to switch them back as the kits grew into something special. Yeah, a major patience issue here as well!

Likewise though, I have those pairs...first litter was awesome so I just left them...and left them...and left them through the years and every single from first (6yrs ago) to now have been just awesome.
 
I agree with mark. It takes years of correct breeding to build enough strong genetics to throw consisent quality young. We judge all of our young at birth but never move crosses till they prove a reason to be seprated. First kids out of well bred stuff will still. Give you agood idea of what potential you will get.
 
I have enjoyed reading the input to this thread. My herd is VERY tiny compared to all of you. I have two males. Both standards. One is proven and the other will be put into breeding within a few days. I pair breed. Not runs.

The proven male was purchased after several years of research and a few shows ( without animals ) before I decided to breed/show. His first two females ( one standard outcross and the other beige ) produced a total of 5 kits. One died early, one was pet quality and the other three were my first attempts at show. I hit four shows with three and a couple were small events. So far so good. Took notes and talked to the judges about them. Then I sold two of them. The only one I had left I took to the Nationals this year. This years Nationals was my first time there. Was I nervous? You bet. Did I pair her parents up well? Indeed. In the class 4 medium standard group she pulled a 1A. Do I know what she needs to improve. Yes. Now comes the question of improving her veiling coverage with my new male. Thats the only fault I can find with her. The new male has a very complete veil and all the qualities to produce some fine future stock.

While my husband and I live in this house, my numbers will remain quite small. Next house will be better for both our hobbies. And I look forward to a "run" experience. I'm the type of person who would rather take small steps first and then learn from it before branching out. I may not be at the shows as often as the rest of you due to litter's born here. But plan on me being around for the long run.
 
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