Dark eb/tan white

[bnrchins]

How adorable! He has really grown well!

 

[Pikaia]

little cuties!

 

[miss.lauren]

Cute babies! If mom is a true chocolate I'd like to see pics of her as well! It may be able to help some people who think they have "chocolates" but actually just have dark tans...

Is there a link or something so I can see the difference between a chocolate and a tan?

 

[Spoof]

Is there a link or something so I can see the difference between a chocolate and a tan?

The difference is terminology and genetics.

There is the argument/discussion that a chocolate has to have chocolate fur from root to tip. That thread is here.

This thread shows what I consider as a chocolate - 100% even color.

Mmmm... chocolate. :heart:

 

[RDZCRanch]

Is there a link or something so I can see the difference between a chocolate and a tan?

True chocolates are so rare to even breed for that very few people around today have even seen a picture, let alone seen one in person. There were some very good pictures of a TRUE chocolate, not an even colored dark tan, that circulated on the internet about 7 years ago. I saw the pictures once and asked my mentors about them and showed them the pictures and they confirmed it was the closest they'd seen to a true chocolate. This chinchilla was SO dark brown that it looked like an extra dark ebony until they blew into the fur and you could see the brown.

Regardless of what many people "consider" a chocolate, a true chocolate would be the tan version of an extra dark ebony. I don't call medium ebonies with even coloring homo ebony and I hope others wouldn't either. Calling the chinchilla colors by improper names is a sales gimmick used by backyard breeders...

 

[Spoof]

True chocolates are so rare to even breed for that very few people around today have even seen a picture, let alone seen one in person.

So a true chocolate is like a unicorn? Everyone's seen pictures and believes in them, but nobody has one?

This chinchilla was SO dark brown that it looked like an extra dark ebony until they blew into the fur and you could see the brown.

Were they blowing on the fur in the pictures? This sounds like a different type of ebony mutation, similar to the mahogany. I'd lay money that the shaft was a different hue than the tip. Even "homo" ebonies have different shaft hues. If you have one that is 100% all shiny black down to the root please take a picture of it against some white printer paper and post it.

The chocolate(s) that breeders are working with now depends on the line of beige they are using, as described in the first link. Trinity has some wonderful pictures for examples. Some lines can only get so dark. Once they have reached maximum darkness for that strain of beige they throw themselves and ex dark "homo" ebonies. Now, if you were to take in a line that has exceptionally dark hetero beiges - the ones that look Tov but aren't, you could potentially get yourself some exceptionally dark animals. However just like in standards the darker the standard the more red in the fur. The more red you have the worse you do on the show table.

In the quest for blue tans and tan whites I've had to make concessions to which line of beige I'm using. This line does tend to look more violet colored than traditional beige, it is very blue. They will never get darker than the female in the links above, regardless of how much ebony gets put into the line.

 

[ppsamm]

At 7 months this guy was so active he was getting hair rings with his buddies so I gave him a couple of standard ladies. Judging by the amount of missing fur they've been teaching him to be polite about his manly activities. His color has turned out very nice.

LOL....Nice! I love pictures of a cheeky face

 

[angels41105]

I have to check her ped again but i have what would genetically be considered a chocolate. One parents was an x drak eb and the other was also genetically a chocolate, she's very dark, maybe 1 shade or 1.5 shades off of being the darkest chocolate i've ever seen. And that one was so dark if you weren't looking at it in good lighting you would be able to tell it was actually brown...

You said these kits came out of your chocolate... your chocolate and what? Always interested in babies that come from chocolates becuase they can throw so many variations.

 

[Spoof]

And that one was so dark if you weren't looking at it in good lighting you would be able to tell it was actually brown...

That's why I take pictures of mine in full sunlight. Do you have any of yours in the sun? I'd love to see them.

I don't understand the 1, 1.5 shades thing, you'd have to show me photos. I worked with another line that became much darker but was very red and while the tans did ok at shows the ebs did horrible. This current line throws beautiful ebonies - you wouldn't know they were out of a beige animal.

Here's dad, out of a BTK standard and a RSF white ebony. He throws kits with very intriguing patterns. Once his son proves to be fertile dad will be for sale.

 

[tunes]

One parents was an x drak eb and the other was also genetically a chocolate, she's very dark, maybe 1 shade or 1.5 shades off of being the darkest chocolate i've ever seen

I have to ask - how many "chocolates" have you seen? Since I've never seen one, not in 10 years, I'd love to know where they are being hoarded. I also have no clue what 1 to 1.5 shades means. It has nothing to do with show terms or breeder terms.

Tara - Chris Woods said that in all her years of owning and breeding chins, she saw what might be classified a chocolate once. There are dark tans, even extra dark tans if you will, but not a true chocolate as would be defined by most people. I've had super dark tans, so dark I'm sure some people would classify them as chocolates, and I still call them a tan because of comments heard over the years, by large, well known, very knowledgeable breeders.

 

[Spoof]

Tara - Chris Woods said that in all her years of owning and breeding chins, she saw what might be classified a chocolate once. There are dark tans, even extra dark tans if you will, but not a true chocolate as would be defined by most people.

So two breeders with upwards of thousands of chins over their lifetimes have only seen what they consider a "true chocolate" once each - that to me is a sighting of a different mutation entirely.

A chocolate should be equal to homo in ebonies as a color descriptor - not a genetic one - it should be a tan chin that is at it's darkest color phase over 100% of it's body.

While they don't use it in show terminology, I've been complimented on "the nice chocolate animal" by judges. They really are an eye appealing chocolate color when all is said and done.

 

[tunes]

While trying to prove your point, you misread my post. I did not say "two breeders", I said "I've had super dark tans, so dark I'm sure some people would classify them as chocolates, and I still call them a tan because of comments heard over the years, by large, well known, very knowledgeable breeders. "

Chris Woods made the comment I posted, she is not the only rancher I've talked to who pretty much considers a chocolate equal with bigfoot. That doesn't mean they can't be out there, but I think the term gets thrown around a lot more than it should. Quite honestly, I think the term chocolate gets thrown around like "reverse mosaic" and "panda mosaic" because people think they are getting something new and exciting and worth more.

If it was a true mutation, where is it on the show table? If these little buggers are so common that someone who has never attended a show has seen tons of them and you are breeding them, where are they in regards to showing? I don't recall ever seeing a chocolate category, just like there are no eb/whites, white/violets, reverse mosaics, panda mosaics, upside down polka dotted mosaics, etc. It's a tan or a white.

I coveted a chin bred by Avima many years ago, that was the darkest tan I've ever seen anywhere, (as close to a chocolate as I'll probably get), and she didn't even call it a chocolate - it was a dark tan.

 

[Spoof]

I didn't misread your post, the "two breeders" were Tabitha's mentors and Chris Woods.

I'm not calling it a mutation, I'm calling it a color phase. Just checked out the MCBA list for the gazallions of white classes I know they have and they do use it on the show table for MCBA. It says Tans/Chocolates/Wraps

If these little buggers are so common that someone who has never attended a show has seen tons of them and you are breeding them, where are they in regards to showing?

Not sure who's seen tons. Yes, I've been working in this color, and with this color as the goal for more than a decade (eegads, we're getting old!). Everything I breed is a process of getting better tan/whites. XXXXXxxxxXXxxx dark tans (Chocolates) are sometimes a byproduct of that. I've gotten three. That's it - three that have no visual shading. What's real cool is when you cross them and wade into the XXXXxxxxXXX dark homo beige tans. I don't discuss those in public because of genetics. Kind of along the lines of viophires. Very taboo.

Like my X's?

just like there are no eb/whites, white/violets, reverse mosaics, panda mosaics, upside down polka dotted mosaics, etc. It's a tan or a white.

Now you know that isn't true for MCBA, they've got the corner market on bizarre terms!
Predominantly white, white with dark guard hair, white with Pink/Beige, White mosaic/Broken Patterns, & Silver.

Tan whites get judged in the white with pink class. Ronda's white violets usually end up in broken pattern.

Sucks to be a sorter when all of us yahoo pattern breeders show up.

 

[tunes]

Tara, don't interpret for me please. I have never spoken to Tabitha's mentors, although I assume you mean Gary and Margot? Well, that's not true. Gary did a chat on CnQ once, but I never spoke to him or even asked a question. I haven't talked to many west coast folks because I never get to see them face to face. I was referring to people I had actually met and talked to.

My apologies on the MCBA rules, but really, that wouldn't apply to you would it? (And technically, they lump EVERYTHING under beige, I just checked the site.) I know most west coasters (even transplanted ones!) don't seem to pay much attention to MCBA and are hard line, strict ECBC kinda folks. So, is it in the Empress show terms? MCBA would make sense, since they are "mutation" folks, but how about Empress? I notice quite a few folk seem to feel that Empress are the end all and be all when it comes to chins. Do they acknowledge chocolates and upside down, backwards, split, somewhat funky whites? I've only been to one empress show and I don't remember seeing them acknowledged there.

The comment about tons was not directed at you, BTW. The poster above you seemed to be stating that she's seen so many different chocolates that she could judge them 1 to 1.5 shades different (and I'm still waiting to see what this means). I'm wondering where she's seen this huge hoard of chocolates, especially since she's never been to a show which is where you would generally expect to see the different mutations.

I still stand by my statement that people throw these terms out to try and coin a phrase and line their pockets because it's "new" and "interesting." I call a mosaic a mosaic. I may say a heavily marked mosaic if someone asks (because they always do), but I don't give it any more exciting name than that. I will also say a white/violet, or eb/white but that's usually to let people know what their genetics is, not to make a fun term. When someone asks if I have chocolates, no matter how dark they are, I say I have dark tans. <shrugs>

 

[Spoof]

You lost me on the interpreting, I'm not trying to insult, offend or do anything other than have an awesome discussion on genetics. ) Unfortunately few really get into the genetics side of it.

My apologies on the MCBA rules, but really, that wouldn't apply to you would it?

It does, my first and last show were MCBA and I've been to 10 or so, that's why I'm not hard line or strict. Only been to two ECBC shows due to the drive distance - they're only held in CA and they do not like colors. The bulk of my sorting knowledge comes from judges who tolerate colors better than some of their ECBC counterparts. MCBA was created for that reason.

A lot of the west coasters don't get involved on the forum. The ones that aren't - and are from WA/OR/ID/Cad - are MCBA. I've only been to two ECBC shows, they don't have much of a following in the PNW and are only held in California. Both the West Coast Chapter and PNW chapters are MCBA.

You're welcome to come love on my chocolate and bring your dark tan for comparison. She's got some 'tude but likes a good cuddle.

 

[Becky]

MCBA does not recognize tans or chocolates on the show table. They all fall under beige wraps, whether they are really light or super dark.

We do have several different divisions for whites. With the new rules, though, most of the whites will show as mosaics. I need to look, but I'm guessing that we haven't updated the website to show the most recent show guidelines.

 

[Kansas City Chinchillas]

Only been to two ECBC shows due to the drive distance - they're only held in CA and they do not like colors. The bulk of my sorting knowledge comes from judges who tolerate colors better than some of their ECBC counterparts.

I've never experienced color intolerance at Empress shows. The judges have been very helpful with information on how to improve mutations.

After a recent ECBC show I observed a group of old time ranchers and judges help a new breeder find the perfect mate for her mutation animal. They spent a good deal of time discussing desired qualities and picked out an outstanding animal for her.

 

[mishalaa]

I will chime in, but only to agree with Peggy that "chocolate," to me, is becoming analogous to "panda mosaic" and "reverse mosaic" etc. It is an extra description to distinguish the pattern (or phase, in the chocolate case) from other mosaics/tans. Thus, it's little more than a selling term.

I have heard Chris' comment and had previously thought of it as the rule. However, I know Dave and Chris are very reticent about terming things silver, chocolate, eyelash chenille, and so on because they don't want people thinking they have something special to sell for big bucks. To them, a tan is a tan, no matter how light or dark it is.

Nowadays, I don't think anyone is ever going to agree on what a chocolate is - whether it's the same as a dark to extra dark tan as younger hobby breeders try to use the word, or an every-hair-shiny-brown root-to-tip unicorn chin as the older ranchers believe. Either way, it's an ebony + beige hybrid of some sort.

I am not opposed to "chocolate" changing meaning from unicorn to any old dark tan - as "TOV" and "charcoal" have already changed meanings - just so long as its usage is understood. However, not that I work with ebony in any form, but should I start I would never use "chocolate" as a descriptive term, I would and will always just say tan. I don't even say mosaic when talking about my broken-patterned whites, I just call them (and my silvers, etc) white, and only elaborate if asked.

 

[aznmexaggie]

I think Tara may be referring to the confusion we've had at our CA ECBC group shows with identifying and judging hers or Ronda's violet-sapphire ("viophire") animals. It wasn't an intolerance of the color... more of a "where the heck do we classify them since they all are of such varying shades? A paler/opal-ish violet or a violet-hued sapphire?". I can't remember if we ended up judging them with the violets or the sapphires or what. I know we wouldn't have created a new class just for them though. Just like we don't have a separate class for every other multi-mute color combination. I'm not sure I've witnessed any other possible mutation "intolerances."

 

[starleomach]

I don't think anyone is mutation intollerant. I think the issue is when people hear terms used to sell an animal for more then it is worth. that makes you a BYB (not a you, you but a general you as in general public...) I have had a person call me reciently trying to sell their lilac..I tried correcting them saying there is no such thing and they insist they have a rare lilac chinchilla.....I have also seen a lot of Rare panda mosiacs for 500, Champaign chinchillas, reverse mosaics. etc It just confuses people when genetically it is just a heavily marked white. IMPO a chocolate is genetically a tan