Curious about pedigrees

[Asha]

I just have a question. Why is it exactly that it is frowned upon to breed chinchillas that are not pedigreed? I understand that a lot of people say that you have to be concerned with the possible genetic conditions and diseases that un-pedigreed chins may carry and pass on to offspring. However, what if you have two chinchillas without pedigrees, but are completely healthy and happy animals. Perhaps they have even been checked out by a vet and the vet gives them both a good bill of health (I'm speaking hypothetically). Why is it still considered bad practice then?

I can totally see that it would be bad practice to breed an animal that obviously has ailments or is too small, but what about healthy critters? After all, other domesticated animals such as dogs and cats (that are healthy) are bred without pedigrees and its considered acceptable. Now I know that chinchillas and dogs/cats are totally different species of course, but I'm just looking at it from a health standpoint.

The main reason these questions have popped into my mind lately is because my recently adopted female had babies. She has no pedigree herself, but her babies are healthy and happy little girls. It just kind of made me think "Hmm, if mommy and babies are healthy, then why is it considered bad to breed healthy chins without pedigrees". I do count myself lucky that everyone is healthy and there were no complications during the pregnancy because I didn't even know she was pregnant. The guy didn't tell me, mostly because I don't think he knew either.

I'm really just trying to understand everything. I've just been wondering about these things since the babies were born, and just made me curious as to the importance of pedigrees. Please be nice in your responses

 

[Lillybabe]

In my opinion no animal should be bred without somehow knowing the lines. This typically is done through a pedigree. Not everyone feels it is acceptable to breed cats and dogs without them. I certainly do not think it's okay to just breed the two cats you have because you want to. There should be a purpose and you should know that the cat's mother and father, and grandmother and grandfather were healthy not just the individual cats. Breeding of cats and dogs by pet owners is part of the reason there are so many in shelters and so many put down every year. Chinchillas I feel are going down the same road because people decide to just throw a male and female together.

As far as the chinchilla you adopted, there's no telling if she really is healthy. Maloclussion and other illnesses that have potentially genetic links often don't show up until the chinchilla is older. There is no way to really know if the kits are really healthy at this point either. Many medical issues could still pop up. Definitely it is unacceptable to breed an animal you know is ill. However, just because it is healthy now doesn't mean it's of healthy genes. Also most people believe you should breed to further/better the species. Not just because it's fun. Then you get into things like fur quality, disposition, etc.

 

[GorillaJTA]

I just have a question. Why is it exactly that it is frowned upon to breed chinchillas that are not pedigreed? I understand that a lot of people say that you have to be concerned with the possible genetic conditions and diseases that un-pedigreed chins may carry and pass on to offspring. However, what if you have two chinchillas without pedigrees, but are completely healthy and happy animals. Perhaps they have even been checked out by a vet and the vet gives them both a good bill of health (I'm speaking hypothetically). Why is it still considered bad practice then?

I can totally see that it would be bad practice to breed an animal that obviously has ailments or is too small, but what about healthy critters? After all, other domesticated animals such as dogs and cats (that are healthy) are bred without pedigrees and its considered acceptable. Now I know that chinchillas and dogs/cats are totally different species of course, but I'm just looking at it from a health standpoint.

The main reason these questions have popped into my mind lately is because my recently adopted female had babies. She has no pedigree herself, but her babies are healthy and happy little girls. It just kind of made me think "Hmm, if mommy and babies are healthy, then why is it considered bad to breed healthy chins without pedigrees". I do count myself lucky that everyone is healthy and there were no complications during the pregnancy because I didn't even know she was pregnant. The guy didn't tell me, mostly because I don't think he knew either.

I'm really just trying to understand everything. I've just been wondering about these things since the babies were born, and just made me curious as to the importance of pedigrees. Please be nice in your responses

It is generally frowned upon to breed dogs and cats that have unknown lines or poor conformation/health.
Just because a genetic condition does not present in your chinchilla does not mean it is not a recessive trait that will pop up in the babies. A vet cannot look at its genetics and tell you what might happen (yet.). Your chinchilla might be very young and not show genetic conditions like malocclusion, seizures, etc. yet, but that does not mean it will not come up eventually. Quality breeders cull chins that show these traits out of their lines.
Another reason that nonprofessional breeding is discouraged is because of the risks of very dangerous birthing complications. A dog or cat can be taken to just about any vet for problems, or even sometimes be helped by an amateur. Chinchillas require specialists.

 

[starleomach]

It is frowned upon to breed pretty much any animal without a pedigree, Just like a pedigree does not make an animal breedable.

The thing about not knowing the background of a chinchilla (or any animal) is not all genetic issues are directly inherited a lot of them are recessive. And how do you know two chinchillas with no background are not related.

Most chinchillas that have an unknown background came from either a backyard breeder or a pet store, A pet store chinchilla comes from Ranchers and they may be related most big breeders breed one male to many females increasing the odds of that pet store chinchilla being related to the pet store chinchilla sitting next to it.

Many backyard breeders don't know the background on their chinchilla and they throw them together to get babies, some people don't care they are related. I have a person that bought a male from me and has asked for every female I have put up for sale, I have refused to sell to them, they want to breed it to their male and even when I point out they have the same father, they say " we don't care they are just rodents, we don't keep track of that kind of thing that is really silly."

Do you "hypothetically" want to breed that offspring from the brother/sister pairing to another potentially related chinchilla? that multiplies the risk of a genetic disorder. Look at the Royal Families of Europe. Hemophilia came about do to too much line breeding and that was distant realatives.

And I know many many people who would be very angered by the whole it is acceptable to breed to unpedigreed dogs. That again is back yard breeders. Responsible owners only breed if they have a good reason and are improving the breed not because they want puppies. Same with Cats. We have rescued most of our dogs and cats from the shelter or when looking for a specific breed a breed rescue, We have gone to a breeder for one and that breeder was researched.

 

[RDZCRanch]

My yorkie is from a backyard breeder. Someone who thought that breeding two healthy LOOKING dogs would make a healthy puppy. She has so many issues, it's not even funny. She is extremely prone to ear infections and giardia and her teeth rot at a faster rate which is due to genetics. I got her because I took her from the pet store that encourages their clients to breed their unpedigreed dogs to sell the puppies back to the pet store.

Also, people breeding cats and dogs without pedigrees and without any idea of responsibility is exactly why the shelters and rescues all around the world are so full. Dogs and cats from responsible breeders, rarely show up in shelters.

Just because two animals appear physically healthy, does not mean they should pass on their genetics to the next generation. Responsible breeders work very hard to prevent genetic issues in their herds by monitoring our lines and their offspring.

Just because you CAN do something does not mean that you SHOULD.

 

[EMSChins]

I would also like to point out that in this thread you say that mom and babies are healthy yet in another thread that you posted at virtually the same time you are asking for help because one of the kits has diarrhea? That alone makes me wonder what exactly your criteria for healthy is before you determine whether your chin is "healthy" enough to breed. I am not even going to get into the genetic traits that your vet could not see or have not popped up yet, before telling you that your chins were healthy as I am sure that the vet did not do a complete blood panel or x-rays under sedation. Again, not beating you up but even those of us with "pedigreed" chins have things come up in lines that make us cull our animals from our breeding programs.

 

[ticklechin]

This is my opinion, if a breeder can't even be bothered with having pedigrees and going through the effort to buy animals that have them, then how do I know as a pet buyer they even bothered to get an healthy animal. Breeding should not just be "Well, lookie here, I gotz meez some chins who today don't have dat malo and I needz some moneez" people like that don't take into consideration those of us who have rescued and purchased malo chins from people and have to deal with the aftermath of buying chins who the "breader" gave a rats boodie about that kind of crud. If you can't make the effort of doing it right, then YOU are a backyard breeder, fluff it up all you want with how purdy your chins are and how they are just the bestest, but its backyard breeding, period.

And VETS telling you its healthy?????? HAHAHAHAHAHAH now that is funny, since most vets can't even tell if a chin is on deaths door when presented a sick a$$ chin.


Using the excuse of breeding a chin that you had no idea was pregnant when you got it and just because the kits came out alive does not give permission to breed it again, the kit in the breeding thread is not what I would call quality.

 

[EMSChins]

I'm sorry - this is off topic, but Dawn...you crack me up!

You always manage to somehow say beautifully in quite plain language what no one else can say with the most eloquent language!

 

[Kalandra]

Just because two animals appear physically healthy, does not mean they should pass on their genetics to the next generation. Responsible breeders work very hard to prevent genetic issues in their herds by monitoring our lines and their offspring.

Dunno if it was mentioned yet or not, but the other piece of this is an animal may appear healthy today and later in life may have a genetic disorder start to become symptomatic. There are no genetic tests that a veterinarian can perform that will tell you if this is hiding in a young, otherwise healthy animal. You may have several babies and possibly multiple generations of young in homes by the time you discover the problem. Homes that will be devastated when they cannot do anything for their pet other than put it down when it starts to be in pain and suffer.

 

[Kylelemler]

I'm not a supporter of breeding pet store chins, but we ourselves have wholesaled some show quality animals because we needed the cash as well as very pet quality animals. One of the biggest breeders out there today started with pet store chins, I don't know much more about it though. But if you do breed just keep in mind that you want to breed to try and improve the animals.

 

[RDZCRanch]

The issue of pedigrees has come up many times before. There will always be someone out there that just is sure their animal is tops and should have babies. A lot of people use the excuse of personality, but chinchillas as a species are very social and can generally be tamed to show sweet personalities.

I don't believe that just because one larger breeder condones breeding pet store animals that it makes it ok. I too have wholesaled animals, but i know that the "quality" in pet stores is only about 10%. The majority of those chins come from backyard breeders. When you can go to a show or a legitimate breeder and see and buy quality with information on their backgrounds, there is no excuse to use an animal with no lineage.

 

[ticklechin]

I'm not a supporter of breeding pet store chins, but we ourselves have wholesaled some show quality animals because we needed the cash as well as very pet quality animals. One of the biggest breeders out there today started with pet store chins, I don't know much more about it though. But if you do breed just keep in mind that you want to breed to try and improve the animals.

Just how exactly are you going to "improve" the animal if you have no idea where it came from, like Oh I don't know does it come from a line of malo chins that just happen to be quality like my first place P/W who came from a line of malo chins, until they hit 2 years old and come down with malo, you can't and who cares if one in a million rancher started with a pet store chin, just because he did does not make it acceptable nor even worth mentioning like its someting to look up to.

 

[Asha]

Most chinchillas that have an unknown background came from either a backyard breeder or a pet store, A pet store chinchilla comes from Ranchers and they may be related most big breeders breed one male to many females increasing the odds of that pet store chinchilla being related to the pet store chinchilla sitting next to it.


Starleomach- I really like your point. This is the type of thing that I've been looking for. Most people I have talked to have been unable to explain the reasoning behind pedigrees in this way and primarily explain it only on the disease side of things. Your point makes alot of sense.

Ticklechin- I really think that you could have voiced your opinion in a much more respectful way. I'm simply looking for information. Looking at your post volume, I'm sure you have some great information and experiences to share, but think you could do it in a nicer way. I am left feeling kind of attacked by you especially when you are scolding me at the end of your post by saying I should not breed my chin. I never said I planned to so please stop making assumptions.

 

[AZChins]

We need pedigrees so that we know where our animals came from so that we know what lines we are breeding. With experience a lot of people realize that breeding two chins from two specific lines may be a bad idea...or a good idea. There's a lot of recessive stuff that you have to worry about that isn't even necessarily about health. A pedigree will tell you if you have ebony or violet or sapphire or other recessive mutations in a chin.

A lot of people don't want ebony in their chins. I know of a breeder who recently bred a chin that had no ebony back for, I believe, seven generations and then had an ebony kit born just like that. Sometimes you have to go wayyyyy back to understand certain things. And, it is always nice to have someone standing behind their animals. If something does go wrong, it's important to tell the breeder or rancher so that they can correct things. Just placing two chins because they are of opposite genders and appear to be "healthy" doesn't tell you any of those things.

Ticklechin is right about vets though. A vet usually can't predict what is going to happen with a chin just by examining it.

The other thing...and this is what I was told way back from a rancher in maybe 1998. If you don't have pedigrees on your animals and something goes wrong with the babies you produce, you are going to be left with 100% responsibility for those animals. You won't be able to blame the people you got your chins from...you won't be able to blame the rancher or breeder they got their chins from. As a responsible breeder you should demand pedigrees so that you can tell the people, who buy your babies, where your breeding chins came from. If you don't know or you don't care, you will be lumped into that category of being a backyard breeder.

You don't want to be called that. Start out right with breeding and you won't be disappointed, find good mentors to help you!

 

[Encantadora]

Without some idea of the genetic history you wouldn't have a clue what you were doing or working with.

 

[ticklechin]

Most chinchillas that have an unknown background came from either a backyard breeder or a pet store, A pet store chinchilla comes from Ranchers and they may be related most big breeders breed one male to many females increasing the odds of that pet store chinchilla being related to the pet store chinchilla sitting next to it.


Starleomach- I really like your point. This is the type of thing that I've been looking for. Most people I have talked to have been unable to explain the reasoning behind pedigrees in this way and primarily explain it only on the disease side of things. Your point makes alot of sense.

Ticklechin- I really think that you could have voiced your opinion in a much more respectful way. I'm simply looking for information. Looking at your post volume, I'm sure you have some great information and experiences to share, but think you could do it in a nicer way. I am left feeling kind of attacked by you especially when you are scolding me at the end of your post by saying I should not breed my chin. I never said I planned to so please stop making assumptions.

The last time I checked this is a DEBATE thread, you started the thread and you have to deal with the responses, you don't have to like what I say, I can still say it and I will, you are not the forum police. You are just another person, one of many many on this forum who "end up with a pregnant chin" and now want to breed it because the kits came out alive. You would not start this thread unless you wanted to breed and want justification to do so. If you don't like what I say then use the warn button and let the mods or admins tell me to shut up, but until then I will speak my mind on this subject, and as a rescuer and foster parent of unwanted junk chins who were bred by backyard breeders with no concern about heath or quality, I have ALOT more to say on this subject.

 

[Vyxxin]

Agreed, with everything already stated. Who accepts the practice of breeding unpedigreed dogs?!? I won't even buy an unpedigreed dog, let alone breed one. I do OWN an unpedigreed dog, he's crippled...born that way...taken to the vet to be put down because he couldn't be sold in his condition yeah, unpedigreed. My two AKC pedigreed mini schnauzers on the other hand have no health problems...I have generations and generations of information on them. Even dog registries such as CKC are worthless...about like a "limited" pet person chin pedigree. You know Dam: Princess Sire: Pumpkin...Not worth the paper it's printed on. Doesn't tell you anything of any use.

Even if you kept your kits four years...and no health problems arose...and showed your kits and they each placed first or above...even THEN they shouldn't be bred w/o a pedigree as you have no idea what's in their lineage (color wise) and would therefore not be breeding with a goal in mind (the goal being improvement) as you could not possibly know what is in the background to improve upon including (as mentioned) ebony, sapphire, violet...weak fur...weak conformation...etc...etc...etc...

Backyard breeders of any species are the reason rescues are overflowing. You don't see GSC chins from good lines in rescues...you don't see best in show dogs in rescue...it could happen...but it's the exception not the rule. I've done rescue work...do you know how many of the chins I've taken in were shown? Not a one, never. Do you know how many had "full pedigrees"? Probably less than 2%. Do you know how may probably had limited "BYB pedigrees"? Much much higher than 2%...more like 25-30%.

Point is, it's cheap enough and easy enough to locate quality animals that you can choose based on the qualities of the individual animal as well as the qualities that are in it's lineage. Why would you want anything else? For cute kits that may or may not have hereditary health problems later in life? That's what backyard breeders do, those cute kits turn into unwanted adults that wind up in rescue.

 

[RDZCRanch]

Starleomach- I really like your point. This is the type of thing that I've been looking for. Most people I have talked to have been unable to explain the reasoning behind pedigrees in this way and primarily explain it only on the disease side of things. Your point makes alot of sense.

I would think the disease aspect would be enough. I've had malo chins, I've watched them suffer and had to have them put down. I would not wish that on anyone and I will do my best to keep those genetic issues out of my herd.

Inbreeding is not as big of a concern considering that most of the top breeders have at least one pair of father to daughter or half brother to half sister pairings. Inbreeding can cause very bad traits to pop up, but it doesn't cause deformed babies. Physical deformities take years and years of inbreeding to pop up.

 

[Amphy64]

You are just another person, one of many many on this forum who "end up with a pregnant chin" and now want to breed it because the kits came out alive.

The topic creator didn't say they wanted to breed this chin, they simply had a question, which they phrased perfectly politely. It's not an unreasonable thing just to ask about, is it? If people explain the reasons why not clearly and politely, then it might encourage anyone who was considering breeding chins from an unknown background to reconsider (and if they don't, they probably weren't going to anyway), right?

Agreed, with everything already stated. Who accepts the practice of breeding unpedigreed dogs?!? I won't even buy an unpedigreed dog, let alone breed one. I do OWN an unpedigreed dog, he's crippled...born that way...taken to the vet to be put down because he couldn't be sold in his condition yeah, unpedigreed. My two AKC pedigreed mini schnauzers on the other hand have no health problems...I have generations and generations of information on them.

I agree it's not accepted practice. I have a pedigree dog too, a chihuahua, he's from a very well-known and respected breeder who regularly wins top awards at shows (and he came with several ribbons himself), I can trace his ancestry back a long way. He has so many health problems it's ridiculous though, a hernia the breeder failed to mention to us when we bought him, patellar luxation, which is genetic, a problem with the discs in his neck (also genetic), breathing issues, a skin problem. A lot of pedigree dogs have genetic health issues, and many breeders do very little to prevent this, there's been a lot of controversy about it (the BBC no longer show Crufts due to it). This is not to say it justifies breeding non-pedigreed dogs, either, of course.


So, I don't think it's at all a good comparison to chins, as most chin breeders I've seen (those who aren't backyard breeders, I mean) are more responsible and are concerned about malo, and chins just aren't (yet, anyway) bred to the extremes dog and cat, or even some rabbit breeds, are, ie. deliberately breeding for a short muzzle, which is likely to cause breathing issues.

The issue is with breeding responsibly, I guess. It's possible to know the background on an animal and still not breed responsibly, if a breeder breeds from an animal despite knowing there may be health issues (of course, even if a breeder is responsible, some issues will likely still appear from time to time regardless). But if you don't know the background at all, you just don't know if there may be health issues or not to begin with.

 

[Megan]

When it comes to chins pedigrees are important to trace back your history. Genetics of mutations in the lines, you can look at the health aspect.Since a vet cannot tell me what is hidden in the lines, I don't go by what they feel should be bred. They can only see the present.

Dogs are another story. I'm content with my rescue dogs. Should I go to a breeder ( and I have two breeders picked out in my breed of choice if I decide to) they do a lot
More than just give pedigrees. Considering the akc and ukc will register dogs that have hung papers and register dogs through pictures. They are registered with the parent club of the breed, have pedigrees, registered with your larger organization AND are temperment tested, and health tested. By health tested I don't mean a trip to the vet. They are registered with cerf and ofa, with results publicly accessible.

That's the only way I'll go when it comes to dogs. Rescue or full blown responsible breeder. No Inbetween for me.