chin with lost pedigree

[Dreamlite]

I have a friend who has given me what left of her breeding herd. Her house was flooded in huricane Sandy so all the pedigrees for the 5 chins were ruined. She does not know the birthdates or animal numbers, but does know which breeders they are from. There are 2 I would love to keep but with out a pedigree am unsure. I trust this person and know she did get the chins from reputable breeders. Would you use the chins in your lines even without the pedigree? Would you buy a kit out of that parent? The 2 I'm keeping are from the same breeder and who shows and has quality chins. How would you list the kits out of athat situation?

 

[jags]

It would have to depend on what I saw in the actual animal, great animal no pedigree, no problem. Average animal with no pedigree I would have to think hard about. Not so great of an appearing animal and I just would not chance it. Even the greatest of breeders raise animals that end up being crap so just because they are from a certain breeder does not equal great animals in all cases.

 

[RDZCRanch]

A few of my lines were started from chinchillas with lost pedigrees. All I do is list the animal's name and the breeder's ranch brand. I've sold some of the babies as breeders to other breeders. Pedigrees get lost all the time for various reasons (mainly a female getting hold of her card and chewing it to nothing). What is important is knowing the quality of that animal and trusting the ethics of the original breeder. The animals I have with lost pedigrees came from ranchers and breeders I know very well and I trust their breeding practices.

 

[jags]

Also depending on the breeder some of us keep pretty decent records of who bought what and when. I have provided pedigrees for many people who had lost their pedigrees. I have also found some animals listed as JAGS animals that the story of where they came from just did not fit the records and was not able to provide any info on them as I am unsure if they where ever our animals to begin with.

 

[Kylelemler]

We got a herd and had no history on the animals. We currently have a few of those females in our show lines. And one produced a nice kit with a full pedigreed male that will be shown at nationals this year. So like Jags was saying it depends on overall quality and all you have to go off of is appearances. So we just gave the animal a letter and number (you can do a name). So it will have a sires pedigree and a dam number.

 

[Pookinaround]

I once bought a family of 4 that came from "one of the OH breeders" but the guy couldn't remember which one. Mom and daughter are gorgeous. Dad and son were ok. I sold dad and son and kept mom and daughter. Paired both to different Shoots males. Mom just had a litter which so far I plan on keeping and daughter is due tomorrow and more than likely I will do the same with hers too. But like stated above it is all whether or not the animal has the goods. If they do I vote go for it.

 

[Vyxxin]

Lost pedigree, no pedigree...where do we draw the line? Me personally, unless I can obtain the pedigree from the original breeder I don't breed the animal no matter how nice the quality is. That's just me apparently, what is the purpose of a pedigree if you just go about breeding animals regardless? Based on appearance? I've seen plenty of beautiful, show quality rescues. I've seen plenty of beautiful PEDIGREED chins with malo rampant in their lines as well. I wouldn't breed either. I understand that a pedigree has to start somewhere...but if this is how we're to start them understand this:

Are you willing to cull any and all offspring AND/OR parents should something genetic crop up?

Do you know what animals these chins are related to, to be sure not to breed too closely to related animals?

Do you plan to have someone KNOWLEDGEABLE grade or assess your animals?

If you answered no to any of these, then a NO should be your answer to breeding them. Breeding quality animals are minimal in cost honestly, why breed unpedigreed chins? I mean, I don't have a large herd and never have. But I've "gone through" a lot of animals in my 9 (going on 10) years of breeding and have honestly never lost a pedigree. I realize it does happen, but that is such a small herd there really is NO excuse to not know enough info to "salvage the pedigree" meaning, even with 16-20 breeding females right now...I could lose a pedigree and know how old the animal was and who bred it.

 

[ticklechin]

Lost pedigree, no pedigree...where do we draw the line? Me personally, unless I can obtain the pedigree from the original breeder I don't breed the animal no matter how nice the quality is. That's just me apparently, what is the purpose of a pedigree if you just go about breeding animals regardless? Based on appearance? I've seen plenty of beautiful, show quality rescues. I've seen plenty of beautiful PEDIGREED chins with malo rampant in their lines as well. I wouldn't breed either. I understand that a pedigree has to start somewhere...but if this is how we're to start them understand this:

Are you willing to cull any and all offspring AND/OR parents should something genetic crop up?

Do you know what animals these chins are related to, to be sure not to breed too closely to related animals?

Do you plan to have someone KNOWLEDGEABLE grade or assess your animals?

If you answered no to any of these, then a NO should be your answer to breeding them. Breeding quality animals are minimal in cost honestly, why breed unpedigreed chins? I mean, I don't have a large herd and never have. But I've "gone through" a lot of animals in my 9 (going on 10) years of breeding and have honestly never lost a pedigree. I realize it does happen, but that is such a small herd there really is NO excuse to not know enough info to "salvage the pedigree" meaning, even with 16-20 breeding females right now...I could lose a pedigree and know how old the animal was and who bred it.

:clap1:

 

[Spoof]

I could lose a pedigree and know how old the animal was and who bred it.

I envy people that are good with dates. I don't even remember my family's birth dates let alone the chin's. Same with numbers. I know who bred them because I've had the same lines for years, but still have to look up the babies when I put them into breeding to make sure they don't share any common ancestors.

Would you use the chins in your lines even without the pedigree?

Yup, have some that are now 9 generations deep from chins that had no pedigrees 14 years ago.

Would you buy a kit out of that parent?

The people that buy kits don't care if it has a pedigree. The people that want pedigrees will want to buy adults that are of an age to judge breeding qualities.

How would you list the kits out of athat situation?

I don't give out pedigrees any more unless someone asks so it wouldn't be an issue. The only time I have given out pedigrees in the last five years is to other breeders who have purchased adults (and a couple new-now-defunct breeders that insisted on babies despite my recommendations).

 

[Dragonflye]

I would contact the breeder and see if you can get the pedigrees. It can't hurt to try.

 

[Encantadora]

I've seen chins out of herds sold with some having missing pedigrees, partial pedigrees, just a ranch brand or birth date. Things happen. The decision is yours and has to be made on what you see as a benefit to the goal you have or what you know she is capable of producing.

Gather as much info as you can. If you sell kits you can say that dad did XY and Z at a show or was certain lines and mom is from X breeder but has a list pedigree, then talk about her qualities: throws great size, awesome fur strength, nice sharp belly, etc.

 

[Dreamlite]

I did contact the breeder. The one female I really would like to keep is a beautiful violet. She has great color, coat, a clear white belly, all the good qualities. The breeder specializes in violets though and has 12 violet females born 3/10 so with out more information which I don't have I can't get her particular pedigree. I do plan on getting her shown/graded to be sure about her quality. I really don't feel that she is compairable to a rescue given I know her breeder but not her particular parents. I at least have the knowledge from visitng the breeder and asking questions that they are responcible and you shown quality animals that are healthy.

 

[ticklechin]

Just curious, why put a unknown chin into your herd when you can just as easy get one that is known, its not like there is a shortage of chins.

 

[6Dusters]

If an animal had everything going for it and could compliment something I had here, then my answer would be yes.

My only concern would be some kind of hidden ebony in an animal I would use without a pedigree.

 

[Vyxxin]

Hidden ebony is and would be one of my lesser concerns about breeding an animal with no pedigree. Malo...malo would top the list. Ebony, sapphire, violet...how about other genes not known to exist? You're lucky enough to get a genetic mutation to pop up, it's desireable...awesome...what good fortune...how do you reproduce it without knowing the genetics? Likewise, a horrid abnormality occurs. Sure, we know about malo...but what about other things like eye issues? How about paralysis? No known genetics, how do you know NOT to reproduce it? You have a genetic health issue pop up, say early onset cataracts? Don't realize it until several "breeding" offspring are sold....or several dozen...or only a few offspring show symptoms so you don't realize they ALL have it and don't warn the buyers of "normal" offspring? Makes in untraceable, makes it a problem like malo. Something that COULD HAVE been bred out, but was incidentally bred so far in that it can no longer be contained just not doing a proper service to the industry IMO. I know this isn't a debate, so my best answers to you are:

I would not breed any animal without a pedigree.

Try to obtain the pedigree, otherwise do not breed the animal.

I would not buy an animal, knowingly, without a good KNOWN genetic background or pedigree.

I would definitely not BREED an animal without a proper pedigree.

I do not consider names a proper pedigree in most cases.

 

[jags]

I am sorry but I give pedigrees with most all animals sold. Does that guarantee no malo, horrid abnormalities, or any other health or genetic issues in any of my animals people purchase? I wish that was true. Wish it were true of the hundreds of pedigreed chins I have bought also! Whats on most pedigrees that guarantees anything other than when it was born, who bred it and what color its ancestors were. While I do not agree you just breed any animal no matter what, I have no problem breeding an animal with no pedigree. I just know I have to make notes in the animals history and watch for problems. I also have no problem culling whole lines as I have done so in the past if the situation warrants it. As far as why chance it, every time we put two animals together we take a chance and have little if any idea as to what could crop up be it good or bad. Just my opinion with years of good and bad from breeding mostly all pedigreed animals.

 

[threewingedfury]

I have to agree with Randy on this one..

First off - anyone can make up or copy pedigrees. Had someone give me a fake pedigree once because they lost the pedigree and I caught it in my software system because the numbers didn't add up. I would have never known if I hadn't had an animal already related to one on the pseudo-pedigree. A pedigree is great to use if you know what you're doing, but it can also hurt you if you don't.

Secondly - just because you have a piece of paper with ranch brands and numbers, doesn't guarantee that the animals will be free of health issues. I will tell you, every animal I've ever purchased that ended up with malo, fur chewed, other health issues - I'd go back to the breeder to let them know and 9 times out of 10, I was told that the line never had a problem and that the originals were still in breeding. So what does that tell me? Not much of anything, other than either problems are hidden, or I may have a fluke and it's up to me to figure out if I should cull the line or wait to see if it's genetic - or I may never know. Most people will not tell you if they have fur chewers or animals with malo in their lines to begin with and a number on a paper certainly doesn't say it either.

I like to have pedigrees so I can check for certain lines I prefer to use and even in some linebreeding, it's very helpful. For health reasons though, pedigrees don't mean jack squat unless I'm missing something... yes, you can track down the breeder, but what if they don't remember the animals or know the lines completely, what if they sold the entire line of offspring? There's just too many, what if's in there and I've never had a pedigree help me when it comes to the health of an animal - it helps me with pairings and playing with genetics.

For instance.. Danko. I have quite a bit of Danko in my violets.. I have no clue what any of his animals are out of because he didn't keep pedigrees, but its normally 3-4 generations back before I see the name. Does this mean that I shouldn't use the animals that were originally out of those lines because he didn't keep pedigrees? Should I shun the breeder who used Danko animals? The only thing that worries me is ebony popping up (which it has in at least one pairing). I won't know from the name whether or not it'll end up with malo or fur chew, but I at least know to be careful because the background may be full of multiple mutes.

 

[Vyxxin]

Well, maybe I pour over pedigrees more than most. I've pinpointed malo within lines WITHOUT the breeder admitting or addressing the issue by the process of deduction.

Likewise, when I joined the chinchilla community nearly a decade ago...it was easy, no pedigree no breeding. Everyone touted that. I bought into it hook line and sinker. Personally, everyone does what they want anyhow. If we're going to condone this, might as well just condone breeding of anything. I mean, if pedigrees are worthless, and realistically there are markets for even the most "unshow quality" of chins...why not breed petstore chins and rescues and anything with the proper reproductive parts? IDK, there has to be a line somewhere. For some that line is a bit more blurred than others I suppose.

 

[threewingedfury]

I think that's just taking it a bit to far - no one is saying breed rescues or just stick any two animals together. The reality is - a single piece of paper is easy to lose. Some people don't keep backups on their herd, a card gets eaten off of the front of a run, a herd book goes missing in a move and all you have is the ranch brand and number of the animal but nothing further, etc. For all you know, the animal the OP is speaking of was from grand show lines, could place very high at a show, etc. I have no clue personally, but I'd rather take an animal to a show, see how well they place and go from there in my breeding than to look at a pedigree and decide from a few numbers. If an animal with a lost pedigree that had everything I needed to help improve my herd and I knew without a doubt that it was from a trusted breeder, the numbers on the paper would mean nothing to me. We take a chance with any pairing we put together, whether we have pedigrees 20 generations back, or just one. It's all a crap shoot in genetics either way.

 

[Vyxxin]

I disagree, many genetic abnormalities could be bred out...with proper breeding practices. As far as individual qualities go, sure, quality in THAT sense is a crapshoot. But some things are not. Look at dogs, good breeders BREED OUT genetic disorders using pedigrees. You think a dogs pedigree says more than a chins pedigree? They don't really. Period. If anything, they say less in most cases. Good breeders go the extra mile. They pinpoint bad genetics and then skillfully and intentionally avoid those lines/animals etc.

I really don't think it's going too far to say any animal may as well be bred. If we're going to discount pedigrees, then we're discounting the whole process. Even as an experienced breeder, against breeding unpedigreed animals this thread has darn near convinced me that it's okay as pedigrees are pretty much useless. That's what I got from this thread, what do you think someone wanting to breed a rescue chin that they acquired free of charge took away from this thread?