Breeding white to white

[Sheena]

Hi, like it was said earlier by someone else, I no longer own chins anymore, but am asking for new members ' sake. Anyways,...
Why is it that you cannot breed a white chinchilla to another white chinchilla? I have heard about a fatality factor? How can this affect my female and the babies??

 

[Anne-Lise]

A baby that develops with 2 white genes (the wilson white, not the recessive) will not survive and might cause the death of the female who's carrying him. It is a lethal factor as you said. They simply are not viable.

 

[tunes]

They won't cause the death of the mother. What they will do, is most likely produce a crap animal. People who don't know any better throw whites together all the time, and the mother's don't die. But whites don't have great fur to begin with so throwing two whites together generally produces a crappy coat.

 

[Anne-Lise]

But I was always told it would be dangerous for the mom too. I mean a dead baby inside could cause problem no?

 

[Megan]

They aren't even sure that a kit is even formed. If there is no egg being formed, there is no kit to harm mom.

It's been done in the past, as well was breeding TOV to TOV with no ill effects..producing good animals---but why bother putting two whites together? As peggy said, msot of the time it yeilds in crap animals.

 

[chinchildren]

this is one of the big, and long standing, misconceptions in chin breeding. because the whitexwhite blackxblack (or any tov) is labeled "lethal factor" people think that someone dies but that is not the case. it is "lethal" in the sense that you cannot have a homozygous white or black but no one dies.

 

[JennyBug]

I'm confused, I thought it was OK to breed black with black as long as they were not velvets... is this wrong? The Silverfalls genetic calculator didn't show a lethal factor, but I would want to be positive.

 

[chinchildren]

a "black" is what you are calling "tov" not an ebony. that is what they are classed as at shows and that is what the ranchers call them. tov is used when the "black" is present together with a gene other than standard.

I'm confused, I thought it was OK to breed black with black as long as they were not velvets... is this wrong? The Silverfalls genetic calculator didn't show a lethal factor, but I would want to be positive.

 

[JennyBug]

Gotcha... thanks for clearing that up!

 

[Anne-Lise]

But what if a kit gets these 2 genes?

I'm a bit confused by this discussion I must admit

 

[tunes]

It's my understanding that there's no way to prove "homo" anything, not in eb or white. Even the term homo ebony is misleading, when it's actually an extra-dark ebony.

If you put two whites together they are going to produce whites and standards. But if I put a PW and a standard together, I can still get a white. That doesn't make any of them homozygous.

The only thing that really happens is the mom produces less kits, I think a third, but someone correct me on that if I'm misquoting. So if mom might have had 3 kits, instead she will have 2. It doesn't make babies rot in mom's stomach. It doesn't affect mom adversely. I agree with Shelli, the term "lethal" is very misleading.

 

[Stackie]

Some genes are required for life and mutations in them may result in death. Since the tov gene and the white gene are both considered 'lethal' when they are crossed and can form a homozygous genotype, we can probably tie them (color genes) to another gene required for life. They're known as recessive lethal alleles and cause death when they are in a homozygous state. Homozygous embryos die in utero and are never born.

 

[TillyChinchilla]

When people have been involved with cavies, the word "lethal" can really throw them off. Lethal cavies (roan x roan or dalmatian x dalmatian (maybe roan x dal? can't remember - it is the roan gene)) are born, and when they are, it isn't pretty. This also happens with horses and rats, and I'm sure more animals as well.

Chins however don't give birth to the "lethal" factor babies. I don't think white x white is a good pairing anyhow, but I have heard of ranchers doing tov x tov. Is it extending the veiling that this is thought to do?

 

[tunes]

Is it extending the veiling that this is thought to do?

That's my understanding as well Bailey. One breeder in particular has been said to produce "upside down skunks." Dark extended veiling and then white belly.

 

[Riven]

If a kit carries two white genes it DOES NOT DEVELOP in chins. The zygote dies and is re-absorbed by the mother, just like it would if she had not been bred at all.

White to white, can and has been done by very experienced ranchers who actually produced some of the best whites of their time. In general it is not recommended by many of today's breeders.

ETA: Horses are prone to the lethal white gene, in horses it causes babies to be born, usually completely white with blue eyes but they often die within a couple days because their digestive tract is not formed properly.

 

[DaphnesandFreddysmom]

So is it anything with white? Like if you bred 2 mosaics together than? I'm also confused because the people we bought Daphne from said their mentors said it kills the mom or produces dead or debilitated babies.

 

[tunes]

So is it anything with white? Like if you bred 2 mosaics together than? I'm also confused because the people we bought Daphne from said their mentors said it kills the mom or produces dead or debilitated babies.

Mosaic to mosaic, pw to mosaic, pw to pw, white/violet to white/eb, etc., etc. It's all the same. You're not going to find mangled baby pieces parts around the cage. That's just someone talking who doesn't understand what the "lethal factor" really is.

 

[Siylvat]

I do not breed but am interrested in all of this so...Just a quick follow up question then. If breeding two whites, or TOVs simply results in less kits. Why do people say not to breed due to the lethal factor? That is one of the first things I heard not to do when I started reading about breeding. Is there a reason not to do it? Is it bad for the mother?

I understand not breeding two whites together because their fur quality is not usually the greatest. It was said earlier that ranchers breed TOVs together to improve veiling.

So, I mean. Why is it bad to breed whites together because of lethal factor, and not because of fur quality or something else. And why do we say not to breed TOVs because of lethal factor...

Sorry if this is a little confusing, I just think I am missing something here...

 

[chinchildren]

well, people say don't do it "due to the lethal factor" because it is a business and if such a pairing will result in STATISTICALLY 30% fewer kits born that would reduce the breeders "production".

that being said i think most of us do not do it because it does not produce the kind of quality we want to get.

I do not breed but am interrested in all of this so...Just a quick follow up question then. If breeding two whites, or TOVs simply results in less kits. Why do people say not to breed due to the lethal factor? That is one of the first things I heard not to do when I started reading about breeding. Is there a reason not to do it? Is it bad for the mother?

I understand not breeding two whites together because their fur quality is not usually the greatest. It was said earlier that ranchers breed TOVs together to improve veiling.

So, I mean. Why is it bad to breed whites together because of lethal factor, and not because of fur quality or something else. And why do we say not to breed TOVs because of lethal factor...

Sorry if this is a little confusing, I just think I am missing something here...

 

[Show-MeChins]

the only thing that is lethal is that the homo (white or tov) kit gets reabsorbed before its developed... resulting in that kit not being born, therefore it is only LETHAL to the kit that is getting reabsorbed .

Doesnt effect mom in any way