Blue vs Red

Ok, I know this is something that would probably be much better showed and explained at a show, but this is a question that came up in chat last night after Laurie started talking about her favorite "copper" chin from the WI show. I know Nicole(Riven) had given me a good example of the blue vs red tint, and I was trying to explain it to Luci, but I'm no good at it.


So, when people talk about a blue vs. red tint, what do they mean? How can you tell if your chin has a blue or red tint if you'd be so inclined to?

It's really easy to see at a show if you know what you're looking for. I know that doesn't help you, but it's true lol.

The red tint I believe comes from oxidation of the fur, but the coppery chin at the show came from the way the chin was living, perhaps with not as much airflow in the cage. It happens over time, and you can normally see it really well in beiges.

Maybe someone will have some pictures to show this. That'd be the best way to understand the difference.

And most of the time it's easiest to see under show lights.

You can see the clarity of a chin when viewing him under the show lights. A "blue" chin will not actually be the color blue but his fur will have a blue hue to it. A chin that has good clarity will hold up against oxidation much better than a chin with poor clarity and a reddish hue to begin with. Clarity is one of the qualities we breed for in order to obtain blue-hued animals although environment such as a barn with too little ventilation and a buildup of ammonia can cause an animal to become casty very quickly.

Older chins, especially noticable in beiges, tend do develop a cast to them from oxidation. A chin never looks as nice as when he is in his first primes

I have two Brown velvets that have oxidized please keep in mind these are recent pictures and they are both older girls. Scarlett and Princess show the red tint. which when seen in younger animals is very bad.


Now a blue animal

This is one of the most complex and multifaceted topics in chins. When most people talk about red and blue they are speaking of clarity in the veiling tip. Clarity can be described as the absence of red or yellow. To see clarity in the veiling tip you need good light that will not produce off colors like show lights, or the sun on a clear day at noon. You then need to look over the animal for the hue. It does not need to be blue for the animal to be clear, it just needs to lack red and yellow.

Bellow the veiling tip sits the bar. Clarity and color in the bar don't seem to be focused on much anymore in the US, but the top animals have a clear white well defined bar and it really gives them eye appeal and shine. This is a good point to differentiate between color and clarity. A blended bar is what we call an off color bar where the veiling tip and under fur sort of blend together into a grey midsection that lacks definition. This is an off color bar, but that does not mean it lacks clarity. The clarity is judged just like in the veiling tip, by an lack of red and yellow. In my experience MANY very good extra dark animal have a blended but clear bar.

Lastly comes color and clarity in the under fur. I think this gets the least coverage of all currently in the us, but a blue underfur can make an animal shine.

So, to sum up my huge rambling post:
1. There is a difference between Clarity and color.
2. Both Clarity and color can be evaluated in the veiling tip, the bar, and the under fur.
3. In any section of the fur shaft an animal can lack clarity but have good color or have good clarity but be off color.

Good post!

Thanks for the info! It was very enlightening.

Great post.

One thing though. The two pictures of the "red" oxidized animals are both brown velvet, and the blue are standard. It can go the other way too right? What I mean is, a BV can be "blue" and a standard can have a "red" tint. Right? Any one have pictures?

oxidation is not the same thing as being red/offcolor. Offcolor can and will be indepentant of oxidation. You can't clear up a genetically red/offcolor chin with all the ventilation inthe world. and it will still be red whithout being oxidized.

the best definition of blue/clear when related to chins I have found is-Having the desired color that is bright in appearance .

This quality in fur allows fur to maintain its color and will not oxidize quickly over time.

Any color chin can have the appearance of "blue" even blacks and beige.
A chin that shows any yellow/red tint isn't clear/blue.

TBFchins said:

the best definition of blue/clear when related to chins I have found is-Having the desired color that is bright in appearance.

Click to expand...

Not to be confrontational, but this is incorrect. Clear and blue are not one in the same. A animal is clear so long as it lacks red and yellow, blue is not required, although it is the ideal. I first heard this definition of clear from the most respected judge around, but have heard it many times since and stand by it.

Brightness also has little to do with clarity, most agree brightness comes from a well defined bar.

The thing with the Brown velvets is they are older, they were shown, oxydization and being off color can be different I just wanted to show examples. I have seen orange blacks, standards, ebs, pretty much any color. Just beiges show it with age so that Is what I have pictures of. any color can be blue...or red.

I understand that oxidation is different than a "red" tint. I should have worded it differently.I meant to state that that is what the pictures posted were. I was just wondering if anyone had any good pictures of a Standard, or Ebony with a "red" tint, and a BV/Beige with a "blue" tint.

I understand that it may be hard to capture on camera. But I am a visual person and it would help if anyone had any examples.

This is REALLY a hands on learning type of thing. Pictures may show you extremes, but the real meat here is in the subtle difference between a low 1st and a high second, or the even more hairline difference that may decide which animal is a grand show and which a reserve. Get out to an event, visit a ranch with grading lights and experience, etc...

Here is some pictures that I took the other day that might help a little bit. I actually took these to show different phases of standards but there are distinct color differences in these kits too.

3 standard kits all from different litters. These were taken in natural light (not show lights)

One kit is from a mosaic, one is from an extra dark standard, the third from a standard.

Is it safe to hazzard a guess that the baby farthest to the right in the first pic has red in it?

I have a nice xdark eb who has a really nice blue hue to her - I think it's really easy to see at shows. At SEC there was a really nice eb that had great qualities but when the judge lifted it up to the light it was easy to see the red tint even from the 5th row.