ticklechin
Well-known member
MMMMM chocolate...
Raisins: Why are they evil?
- Thread starter halfstache
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Pet people will do what they want to do anyway. All you can do is warnthem. A few years back I sold a beautiful pair of chins to a very intelligent couple. When the wife developed allergies and asked if I would take them back, I said of course. Now I know I warned them multiple times to not feed raisins or the seed filled treats sold at pet stores. I got them back and every thing looked great except for the 4 cans of 8 & 1 Chinchilla seed/nut treat that came with them :hair:
lilchinchilla
Well-known member
{QUOTE]The article is thought-provoking. It does not address all of the questions we have but it is interesting never-the-less.
The point of quoting the article is several fold but is mainly to get members to think about the physiological effects of stress on a chinchilla and what has been the traditional way of tackling it (i.e. giving raisins full of sugar):
- Traditionally it is assumed that a stressed chinchilla needs a boost of glucose.
- Most of the research on chinchillas and blood glucose levels has been done on anaesthetised or immediately post-mortem chins.
- These chins were alive and (from the snippets on that page) had bloods done awake.
- The quoted portion makes a correlation between the stress of moving chins (i.e. taking them to a show etc) with raised blood glucose levels - which goes against the traditional theory that stress lowers blood sugar levels.
- The questions for members who give raisins for stress (which is done on the assumption that stress lowers blood sugar) is, are we actually going against the normal physiology of the chinchilla by giving them raisins?
My response to that questions is: Yes we are - a stressed chin does not need more sugar.
[/QUOTE]
Well wouldn't it be more of a help to give them sugar when their bodies are going through stress, so that they have an accessible form of energy? That way, they don't rapidly deplete their blood glucose supply in their bodies and instead of creating a rapid blood glucose level drop, which could lead to seizure later on or compound the stress. After a stressful incident, don't you ever notice that the chins seem a bit irritable and lowered in energy? Sometimes they can even be a bit shaky.
Once a chin eats after a stressful incident, they tend to go back to normal and it tends to help bring up the glucose level to make them feel better? Also wouldn't the higher glucose level be helping the chin during the stressful time?
{QUOTE]
The point in commenting that the chins were alive and well was partly in response to the anti-testing mentality the author was addressing but also because (as I said above) quite a bit of the research carried out on chins is done post-mortem or the chins are euthanized afterwards.
The chins in the study were healthy, normal chins which were part of a breeding herd so the results should be more applicable to chins in pet or breeding homes. [/QUOTE]
If high glucose levels in the blood are supposedly bad, shouldn't the chins have died after the stressful incident? Temporarily raising the blood glucose level (like a raisin would do), must not be all that harmful, if the chins did not die (as it says) and were placed back in breeding and went on to good homes. A temporary increase in the blood glucose must not be that bad, if one is looking at that study. It also suggests that you could preemptively raise the blood glucose level and lessen stress by giving a raisin or something with simple sugars in it, to raise the blood glucose level much more quickly during stress. Since it is more rapidly absorbed into the bloodstream and wouldn't it be less taxing on their liver for digestion? It seems the mechanism for dealing with stress, is for the blood glucose level to be elevated, correct?
{QUOTE]People should not be giving raisins to stressed chinchillas because the sugar will simply be adding to that already in the body and is unnecessary. [/QUOTE]
Can you validate where there is research or scientific data proving that it is unnecessary to give one raisin to a chinchilla once in a while?
The point of quoting the article is several fold but is mainly to get members to think about the physiological effects of stress on a chinchilla and what has been the traditional way of tackling it (i.e. giving raisins full of sugar):
- Traditionally it is assumed that a stressed chinchilla needs a boost of glucose.
- Most of the research on chinchillas and blood glucose levels has been done on anaesthetised or immediately post-mortem chins.
- These chins were alive and (from the snippets on that page) had bloods done awake.
- The quoted portion makes a correlation between the stress of moving chins (i.e. taking them to a show etc) with raised blood glucose levels - which goes against the traditional theory that stress lowers blood sugar levels.
- The questions for members who give raisins for stress (which is done on the assumption that stress lowers blood sugar) is, are we actually going against the normal physiology of the chinchilla by giving them raisins?
My response to that questions is: Yes we are - a stressed chin does not need more sugar.
[/QUOTE]
Well wouldn't it be more of a help to give them sugar when their bodies are going through stress, so that they have an accessible form of energy? That way, they don't rapidly deplete their blood glucose supply in their bodies and instead of creating a rapid blood glucose level drop, which could lead to seizure later on or compound the stress. After a stressful incident, don't you ever notice that the chins seem a bit irritable and lowered in energy? Sometimes they can even be a bit shaky.
Once a chin eats after a stressful incident, they tend to go back to normal and it tends to help bring up the glucose level to make them feel better? Also wouldn't the higher glucose level be helping the chin during the stressful time?
{QUOTE]
The point in commenting that the chins were alive and well was partly in response to the anti-testing mentality the author was addressing but also because (as I said above) quite a bit of the research carried out on chins is done post-mortem or the chins are euthanized afterwards.
The chins in the study were healthy, normal chins which were part of a breeding herd so the results should be more applicable to chins in pet or breeding homes. [/QUOTE]
If high glucose levels in the blood are supposedly bad, shouldn't the chins have died after the stressful incident? Temporarily raising the blood glucose level (like a raisin would do), must not be all that harmful, if the chins did not die (as it says) and were placed back in breeding and went on to good homes. A temporary increase in the blood glucose must not be that bad, if one is looking at that study. It also suggests that you could preemptively raise the blood glucose level and lessen stress by giving a raisin or something with simple sugars in it, to raise the blood glucose level much more quickly during stress. Since it is more rapidly absorbed into the bloodstream and wouldn't it be less taxing on their liver for digestion? It seems the mechanism for dealing with stress, is for the blood glucose level to be elevated, correct?
{QUOTE]People should not be giving raisins to stressed chinchillas because the sugar will simply be adding to that already in the body and is unnecessary. [/QUOTE]
Can you validate where there is research or scientific data proving that it is unnecessary to give one raisin to a chinchilla once in a while?
ticklechin
Well-known member
How about turning it around and providing research that a raisin is beneficial? I asked for research and it was not provided because there more than likely is none on chinchillas specifically, you have to adapt it to hind gut fermenters to which I also asked for research earlier on that and it was ignored.
lilchinchilla
Well-known member
Dawn, I am just trying to understand where your proof or anyone's proof is that it is bad?
If there is no research or scientific data to prove it has ill effects on chinchillas, then obviously there is no validity to it.
As far as research, I would suspect Barbara Shoots or other long time ranchers who have been feeding raisins for 35+ years to their chinchillas and many of the owners in the past years who fed raisins daily to their chins and did not report ill effects(for all the years that cnq was on, there were many owners feeding raisins, some as much as 5 or 10 raisins a day.), is valid "research" to prove it is not hurting them.
There are a huge number of chinchilla owners out there who do not go on forums who feed raisins daily and there are many vets who recommend them as a treat in moderation. We don't hear about chinchillas dying or becoming ill from this.
I would trust the experience of Barbara Shoots or others who had 300 or more chinchillas being fed raisins throughout all those years, to be "research" enough.
Didn't some of Ralph's chins live to be 18 years old or older? I also know of ranchers up here who fed raisins that had chins as old as 21 years of age(and had been breeding chinchillas for over 35 years.), with no ill effects from doing that.
If there is no research or scientific data to prove it has ill effects on chinchillas, then obviously there is no validity to it.
As far as research, I would suspect Barbara Shoots or other long time ranchers who have been feeding raisins for 35+ years to their chinchillas and many of the owners in the past years who fed raisins daily to their chins and did not report ill effects(for all the years that cnq was on, there were many owners feeding raisins, some as much as 5 or 10 raisins a day.), is valid "research" to prove it is not hurting them.
There are a huge number of chinchilla owners out there who do not go on forums who feed raisins daily and there are many vets who recommend them as a treat in moderation. We don't hear about chinchillas dying or becoming ill from this.
I would trust the experience of Barbara Shoots or others who had 300 or more chinchillas being fed raisins throughout all those years, to be "research" enough.
Didn't some of Ralph's chins live to be 18 years old or older? I also know of ranchers up here who fed raisins that had chins as old as 21 years of age(and had been breeding chinchillas for over 35 years.), with no ill effects from doing that.
Everyone needs to remember that Barbara did not advocate giving raisins as treats. She mentioned it in a very limited setting, i.e., at a show or when you first take a chin home. A set, and limited time and amount. I don't think that given for that amount of time that the chin is going to keel over. Now, if there were gut issues involved simultaneously, I absolutely would not give raisins.
We all know there is no long term research regarding raisins in chins, for or against. There is hardly any long-term research for chins at ALL. The best we can do with a lot of this stuff is compare to other similar animals, like Dawn did with rabbits. Horses also are very similar to chins. People love to give their horses sugar cubes but it is not something I would do with mine nor would I recommend it.
We all know there is no long term research regarding raisins in chins, for or against. There is hardly any long-term research for chins at ALL. The best we can do with a lot of this stuff is compare to other similar animals, like Dawn did with rabbits. Horses also are very similar to chins. People love to give their horses sugar cubes but it is not something I would do with mine nor would I recommend it.
ticklechin
Well-known member
I am not sure how many times her quote needs to be quoted because the thread is not being read but Barbara Shoots does not feed raisins as treats.
AND
Since most vets don't know squat about chins and can't diagnose the problem let alone issue a treatment plan and since most people lie about chins dying or why they died and since most people don't bother to get a necropsy on a chinchilla then really how many chins do die from it, you don't know and won't know because you can't know.
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AND
Since most vets don't know squat about chins and can't diagnose the problem let alone issue a treatment plan and since most people lie about chins dying or why they died and since most people don't bother to get a necropsy on a chinchilla then really how many chins do die from it, you don't know and won't know because you can't know.
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lilchinchilla
Well-known member
I never said she did feed them as treats. I said:
Nowhere in my post does it say they or other ranchers fed them as treats.
Considering I am not seeing any research from what is mentioned against raisins for chinchillas, I consider that to be research or experience for the many years those who have given raisins to their chinchillas.
I had posted previously with a link to a page about horses, their digestion and sugar. However horses are not chinchillas.
As always it has said high concentrations of sugar can be a problem in feed for horses.
Is 1.45 grams of sugar in an average 2.5 gram raisin to be considered a high concentration of sugar?
Nowhere in my post does it say they or other ranchers fed them as treats.
Considering I am not seeing any research from what is mentioned against raisins for chinchillas, I consider that to be research or experience for the many years those who have given raisins to their chinchillas.
I had posted previously with a link to a page about horses, their digestion and sugar. However horses are not chinchillas.
As always it has said high concentrations of sugar can be a problem in feed for horses.
Is 1.45 grams of sugar in an average 2.5 gram raisin to be considered a high concentration of sugar?
No stressed chins do not need extra sugar because their blood glucose levels are already raised due to the body's physiological response to stress - the answer to your questions is in my post.
Why would you give additional sugar to a body which already has raised blood glucose levels? It is unnecessary and high blood glucose levels can lead to fitting.
If anything, giving a boost of glucose increases the post-glucose crash that is caused when blood glucose levels drop rapidly, puts extra strain on already stressed organs (e.g. the pancreas due to increased need for insulin) and de-stabilises the body's efforts - giving slow releasing foods (such as pellets) would provide a much more stabilising effect on blood glucose levels which is why chins appear to calm down after eating their normal foods.
What? Now you're being ridiculous.
Your question does not relate to the quoted statement.
ticklechin
Well-known member
We don't here about because:
A: a necropsy is almost never performed so the cause of chinchilla deaths is who knows what.
B: What owner would admit they gave their chin 3 raisins then it got bloat and died, the chin would have just A: fell off the face of the earth or died because of you name it, it would not be raisins, the owner would never admit it.
C: A vet would be lucky to know bloat if they seen it, let alone the cause. So how many cases are undiagnosed. Who knows.
So saying chins don't die from it is misleading and frankly wrong, because we don't know why chins die and until owners step up to the plate, get over whatever their issues are and have necropsies done, no one can say why pet chins die.
lilchinchilla
Well-known member
Well, if this is true, then why would the body respond with increased levels of glucose unless it is needed to help the body in times of stress? I am just going to go out on a limb here, and suspect the body isn't trying to hurt itself by increasing the levels.
What if it was given before they are stressed? Wouldn't that be preempting the stress?
That didn't answer my question. I am looking for answers, to explain why the theory is that one raisin or raisins given in moderation are so bad.
What is 1.45 grams of sugar going to be harmful during stress, to make it unnecessary?
When they are stressed, don't they burn up more calories, and by giving a raisin, you help to sustain their blood sugar level? There will be a spike during stress, but shortly thereafter, would the glucose level not drop down because they are burning up all those calories? Would it not keep them from having that crash, by giving them a raisin and thereby sustaining the blood glucose level?
I don't feed raisins at all, but I am trying to see your point of view here. I always like research or experience or proof, to show the validity of each side of argument.
Cuddlebug
Well-known member
I am a diabetic and I can tell you that when your sugar is high, be it naturally or otherwise, you do not need more sugar. In fact, you risk raising the sugar level to a point that is high enough to cause serious problems such a seizures and coma. The crash that comes afterward is more severe, too. It is not moderated by the additional sugar.
Also, a constant high glucose level, which can be caused by eating a lot sugar regularly, such as a chinchilla eating raisins daily, can cause long term problems like organ damage that you may not see any signs or symptoms of until the chinchilla has a necropsy. Necropsies just don't happen in the vast majority of chinchilla deaths, especially with pet chinchillas, so the results of feeding too many raisins doesn't get recorded.
Also, a constant high glucose level, which can be caused by eating a lot sugar regularly, such as a chinchilla eating raisins daily, can cause long term problems like organ damage that you may not see any signs or symptoms of until the chinchilla has a necropsy. Necropsies just don't happen in the vast majority of chinchilla deaths, especially with pet chinchillas, so the results of feeding too many raisins doesn't get recorded.
lilchinchilla
Well-known member
Thanks for your response. I didn't realize chinchillas are all diabetic. :hmm: Are not the vast majority, not diabetic?
In the short term, of moderation, or once in a while, is a raisin or the stress raising the glucose levels, going to cause that damage?
I am going to quote back to halfstache's original post here, since it is just what I would say too at this point and I don't think at this time in this thread, this comment has been proven to be false or incorrect, with what halfstache has said:
Yes, but is it not a "temporary" high level of glucose during stress? As chinchillas are not stressed 24/7 nor do people usually feed raisins 24/7 to cause such long term problems such as organ damage?
In the short term, of moderation, or once in a while, is a raisin or the stress raising the glucose levels, going to cause that damage?
I am going to quote back to halfstache's original post here, since it is just what I would say too at this point and I don't think at this time in this thread, this comment has been proven to be false or incorrect, with what halfstache has said:
Once again you're missing the point and I'm not going to repeat it since it's already there in previous posts.
No.
My statement wasn't meant to answer your question because nowhere in my posts or that research does anyone suggested one raisin is bad - I'm not sure where you plucked that theory from.
Again, I have made it clear in my posts why I quoted the article but you seem to want to argue something different.
The poster above has kindly illustrated their experience of a post-hyperglycaemia crash but you've dismissed it out of hand.
Stress produces a body reaction which prepares the body for flight or flight - the extra glucose may not be used up at all (if there is neither fight nor flight) and the body then has to produce more insulin to return to homeostasis.
Giving glucose will simply continue to spike blood glucose levels and the resulting crash will be sharp/rapid - as I said in a previous post, giving pellets would have a better long term effect (as an example, think low glycaemic index which produces a more even blood glucose level over a sustained period of time). It's the same as with humans - a sugar high followed by a crash which leaves you feeling tired, hungry, and maybe even a bit stroppy.
Spiking or bouncing blood glucose levels can have long term effects on the body - there is nothing to either support or deny that the same is not true for chinchillas.
Really? It seems to me that you want to argue that giving raisins is acceptable when a stressed chin already has raised blood glucose levels because no-one has actually done research which conclusively proves, beyond shadow of a doubt, that it is not harmful.
That's uncalled for and unnecessarily ridiculous.
ticklechin
Well-known member
The lady doth protest too much, methinks, or so it seems.
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6Dusters
Well-known member
I will continue to use moderation as defined in my post. If one is so inclined to give out the "evil raisin" as a treat, I would suggest a small one and not often. Hay and apple wood are my first choice. I am more interested in keeping the teeth and bowels in good working order. A variety of hay keeps my herd begging for more.
For those not enlightened with moderation I shall repeat the meaning.
Moderation: Within reasonable limits. The avoidance of extremes or excesses.
I do agree with the statement LILCHINCHILLA made: I always like research or experience or proof, to show the validity of each side of argument.
I'll leave it up to Alicyn to find out the answers to the evil raisin. Winks.....
__________________
For those not enlightened with moderation I shall repeat the meaning.
Moderation: Within reasonable limits. The avoidance of extremes or excesses.
I do agree with the statement LILCHINCHILLA made: I always like research or experience or proof, to show the validity of each side of argument.
I'll leave it up to Alicyn to find out the answers to the evil raisin. Winks.....
__________________
ticklechin
Well-known member
You can't find something that does not exist, there is pretty much squat on the subject on chinchillas, you have to extrapolate it from other hindgut fermenters. And since information is not avaliable for chinchillas specifically, how do you define "reasonable limits" or "extremes or excesses". Since that information is not avaliable, those of us who are cautious would rather error on the side of careful and not provide the raisin.
6Dusters
Well-known member
My dear, apple wood and hay are my first choice as stated.
Pookinaround
FUZZ BUTT ENTHUSIAST
Just being curious but does anyone actually know of a SPECIFIC chin that died from being fed raisins that was confirmed as the cause of death by a vet through a necropsy or some sort of post mortem test like maybe a blood workup??? Again I don't know one way or the other but I just hope that the whole pet owner giving the occasional raisin to their chin is turned into such a bad thing idea is perpetuated by a fear of them going overboard. It's like in a way maybe that since pet owners can't be trusted to feed raisins in moderation let's just consider it bad practice so they won't do it at all.
When I first got my chins I gave them raisins all of the time and maybe I was just lucky but nobody suffered any ill effects from it. I stopped a long time ago cause everyone said no to but I still would like to see SPECIFIC examples of a particular chin being harmed by the dreaded raisin.
When I first got my chins I gave them raisins all of the time and maybe I was just lucky but nobody suffered any ill effects from it. I stopped a long time ago cause everyone said no to but I still would like to see SPECIFIC examples of a particular chin being harmed by the dreaded raisin.
I am going to close this thread, as it is just going in circles. People will do whatever they want to do.
As for me, I haven't fed a raisin in years (though I've been to many shows), and don't plan to do so. It seems to me that if there is a CHANCE of them causing problems- why take the chance. There are plenty of healthy treats they like just as much.
As for me, I haven't fed a raisin in years (though I've been to many shows), and don't plan to do so. It seems to me that if there is a CHANCE of them causing problems- why take the chance. There are plenty of healthy treats they like just as much.
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