Raisins: Why are they evil?

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I don't feed raisins as treats either but they come in handy for certain situations such as bribing a chin to take their metacam. I've also used them for tired moms after giving birth and new chins that seem very stressed. There is nothing like a raisin or dust bath to cheer a chinchilla up.

I'm aways surprised when I see all the cases of bloat on here. In 18 years of owning chinchillas, I have not had one chinchilla bloat.

For pet owners, I always recommend a piece of unsweetened shredded wheat and lots of wood chews.
 
All the animals were healthy and quite alive after the testing. A few were put into breeding and the rest have been adopted by the vet techs that were involved in the testing.
Hey Claire, upon reading your article you referred to, I am trying to understand what the issue was with the elevated sugar levels in the blood? As I quoted above, it says they were all healthy and quite alive after the testing. Not quite getting the point of quoting that article? I suppose I missed something, but if you could point it out, that would be appreciated.

As far as raisins go, I do not personally offer them to my chins, but I do not have an issue if someone chooses to offer them - in moderation - to their chinchillas. If asked what moderation means (which is the most important part about it, since some people assume moderation is 10 or 20 raisins a day, some realize it might be more like 1 a week or a cut up raisin once a day, etc...Everyone interprets moderation differently.), I do not see the reason for not having one a week and I have recommended it for those chin owners who have chins that have lowered blood sugar levels after physical activity resulting in seizures.

Some of those owners have found their chins to have seizures after time out for play, and for many many years, it was and has always been advised that if it is low blood sugar levels from that activity causing the seizures, to give a raisin or something with some sugar in it.
As far as I know, and I am sure research can be done into this, sugar is in most foods, whether pellets or hay. I thought this was a good article that refers to sugars in grains (which is also in our pellets.) and sugar in hay as well - http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/livestk/01818.html
Which if we went with the idea of sugar causing digestive issues with chins, then I suppose everyone's chins on pellets and hay should be having troubles with their digestion?
I guess if we go with the theory of no sugar in their diet, then no pellets and no hay would be sufficient to equal that kind of diet. I suppose I could always feed the chins cardboard instead?
 
The article has to do with this statment, stress already increases blood sugar levels in chinchillas, there are actually a few different scientific papers online about it, mainly with blood collection-the levels increase due to the stress of the procedure on a awake chin.


When a chinchilla is highly stressed as in the situations Barbara outlined above, a quick boost of sugar is beneficial to elevate the chinchilla's mood and ward off shock. It has to do with increasing the blood sugar levels

Chinchillas get sugar from the hay and pellets already, that is a given, the point is do you really need to add to that with sugary treats when there are much better options avaliable. KISS is what I have always heard about chin diets, Keep It Simple Stupid. Hay, water and pellets. I think I will dig up the article on native plants chins ate and see what sugar levels were in such plants if that info is even avaliable. Hay also.
 
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The article has to do with this statment, stress already increases blood sugar levels in chinchillas, there are actually a few different scientific papers online about it, mainly with blood collection-the levels increase due to the stress of the procedure on a awake chin.
Okay, well how would a temporary increase of blood sugar levels adversely affect a chin in the long term? I don't see where it says anywhere of the chins dying or being ill after the test was done?

Isn't there some sort of biological function in having an elevated blood sugar level in times of stress? There must be a reason for their bodies to do that. As we see what happens when they have lowered blood sugar levels, they have seizures.

So why do their bodies allow them to have increased levels of blood sugar during stressful times, unless there must be something beneficial to them when this happens? I do not see anywhere in the article where it states the increase of the blood sugar levels caused problems for the chins?

And what does this have to do with raisins? I saw no mention of raisins in the article causing the increase of blood sugar levels in those chins?

Better options of treats without sugar are? If we're talking rosehips, there is sugar in those. If supplements (like herbal), there is sugar in those too?

A reference for sugar in rosehips: http://www.drugs.com/npp/rose-hips.html
Rose hips also contain vitamins A, B 1 , B 2 , B 3 , and K. Other ingredients include pectin (11%), tannins (2% to 3%), malic and citric acids, flavonoids, red and yellow pigments, especially carotenoids, polyphenols, invert sugar, volatile oil, vanillin, and a variety of minor components.

Even unsweetened shredded wheat has 1 gram of sugar in it. http://www.livestrong.com/article/334592-shredded-mini-wheats-nutrition/
Is that 1 gram going to adversely affect a chinchilla?

My point to posting this, is moderation is key if you give treats, whether raisins or otherwise. That has always been said for many years now, to give it in moderation. Too much of anything, whether sugar or otherwise, is never good.
 
Other treats make no difference to me, I feed only hay, pellets and water so I really don't care personally what other stuff has. They don't need that other stuff to be healthy and happy. Another poster stated they are suprised how many cases of bloat are on here, its because pet chins are fed junk food to make the owners happy, its not hard to figure out. So when threads like this have people stating feed raisins its OK, even healthy, it just makes me sad, sad for the chin to go through bloat, sad for the owner who has to fight to keep the chin alive. Not much more to say about it.
 
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Even unsweetened shredded wheat has 1 gram of sugar in it. http://www.livestrong.com/article/334592-shredded-mini-wheats-nutrition/
Is that 1 gram going to adversely affect a chinchilla?

This is 1 gram of sugar per 12 grams of shredded wheat, so what sugar a chin gets from 1 or 2 shredded wheat is nearly negligible.

And the increase is blood glucose in times of stress is a physiologic reaction. It occurs to fuel vital organs when animals go into "fight or flight" mode - i.e. red blood cells, muscles, brain cells, the like.
 
I think I will dig up the article on native plants chins ate and see what sugar levels were in such plants if that info is even avaliable. Hay also.

I would love to see the article if you can find it. A long time ago I had read that one of their native foods was a fruit found on a certain type of cactus. The names of which I have long since forgotten, but I recall it being a cactus fruit. That was one of those things that had confused me, but then that was a naive assumption on my part that fruit was fruit, no matter where it came from. I know better now, but I'm still interested to learn more of what the natural forage for them consisted of. I mean whatever it was, if it worked for them for thousands of years in the wild, it should be just as good for them now.
 
if it worked for them for thousands of years in the wild, it should be just as good for them now.

Not necessarily, the bacteria and enzymes in any animals guts adapt to what is being consumed. So after being pets for so many years their gut flora has likely adapted to a hay and pellets diet. It would be interesting to compare the gut flora of a pet chin to a wild one (if there's any left), or any pet to it's wild counterpart.
 
Thank you for answering that.
This is 1 gram of sugar per 12 grams of shredded wheat, so what sugar a chin gets from 1 or 2 shredded wheat is nearly negligible.

But if this is "nearly negligible", then what is a problem with one raisin?

I looked up about raisins, and the average raisin weighs 2.5 grams.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_grams_does_a_raisin_weigh

Average of sugars in 100 grams of raisins is 58 grams (fructose and glucose) of sugar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raisin

So breaking it down to one raisin, that means there is 1.45 grams of sugar in every average sized raisin weighing 2.5 grams.

So with this in mind, does that .45 gram extra of sugar, really harm chinchillas compared to the 1 gram of sugar in one unsweetened shredded wheat? Is that 0.45 grams that detrimental to their health that it would kill them or cause serious illness or troubles with their digestion?
 
Thank you for answering that.

But if this is "nearly negligible", then what is a problem with one raisin?

I looked up about raisins, and the average raisin weighs 2.5 grams.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_grams_does_a_raisin_weigh

Average of sugars in 100 grams of raisins is 58 grams (fructose and glucose) of sugar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raisin

So breaking it down to one raisin, that means there is 1.45 grams of sugar in every average sized raisin weighing 2.5 grams.

So with this in mind, does that .45 gram extra of sugar, really harm chinchillas compared to the 1 gram of sugar in one unsweetened shredded wheat? Is that 0.45 grams that detrimental to their health that it would kill them or cause serious illness or troubles with their digestion?

Well in 2.5 grams of shredded wheat there would be about .2 grams of sugar. So 2.5g of raisin would have 1.25g more sugar. Do I personally think that much sugar is a problem for a chinchilla? On a weekly or even daily basis, not really. BUT the problem is many pet owners wouldn't stop at one raisin a day, and it's even more unlikely they would only give 1 raisin a week.

Treats are usually recommended by most nutritionists somewhere in the range of 5-15% of the daily diet. Most chins eat around 2 tbsp of pellets, and atleast a nice big handful of hay, in one day. I have no idea how much that is on a weight basis (maybe...30-50 grams?), but 5-15% of it would be a very small amount, likely smaller than most pet owners spoil their pets with.
 
I would love to see the article if you can find it. A long time ago I had read that one of their native foods was a fruit found on a certain type of cactus. The names of which I have long since forgotten, but I recall it being a cactus fruit. That was one of those things that had confused me, but then that was a naive assumption on my part that fruit was fruit, no matter where it came from. I know better now, but I'm still interested to learn more of what the natural forage for them consisted of. I mean whatever it was, if it worked for them for thousands of years in the wild, it should be just as good for them now.

I'm also fairly certain they had a lot shorter lifespan in the wild. Which was of course due to many factors... but diet could definitely been one of them. Also, don't they travel in huge groups in the wild? I don't they're going to be able to binge on sugary treats with that much competition. I've seen people in a 1 min YouTube clip feed their chinchilla 5 raisins. Those things have a ton of sugar for such a tiny critter. Most childcare centers don't even offer raisins as a healthy snack option anymore. Eating the grapes straight is much healthier, and much more filling. Not that I'm saying we should give chinchillas grapes either. Then there's the whole, raisins have been found to be toxic to several types of animals (dogs for sure right?) why risk it? Give them something simple... a shredded wheat. Or stick to chew sticks. My girls are 7 months and have yet to have a "treat". My family is dying to spoil them with them. They get a supplement and I've offered them it out of my hand before... or allowed family to offer a pinch in such a matter. But, more often, if I want to handfeed them to watch the adorableness of them eating out of my palm, I use hay or pellets. They are just as happy to eat those out of my hand. Of course, perhaps they don't know what they're missing. They've never had a raisin. I see it as offering a 6 month old child a candy bar. It might not kill them... but it's not good for them and adds nothing to their diet.
 
Hey Claire, upon reading your article you referred to, I am trying to understand what the issue was with the elevated sugar levels in the blood? As I quoted above, it says they were all healthy and quite alive after the testing. Not quite getting the point of quoting that article? I suppose I missed something, but if you could point it out, that would be appreciated.

The article is thought-provoking. It does not address all of the questions we have but it is interesting never-the-less.

The point of quoting the article is several fold but is mainly to get members to think about the physiological effects of stress on a chinchilla and what has been the traditional way of tackling it (i.e. giving raisins full of sugar):

- Traditionally it is assumed that a stressed chinchilla needs a boost of glucose.

- Most of the research on chinchillas and blood glucose levels has been done on anaesthetised or immediately post-mortem chins.

- These chins were alive and (from the snippets on that page) had bloods done awake.

- The quoted portion makes a correlation between the stress of moving chins (i.e. taking them to a show etc) with raised blood glucose levels - which goes against the traditional theory that stress lowers blood sugar levels.

- The questions for members who give raisins for stress (which is done on the assumption that stress lowers blood sugar) is, are we actually going against the normal physiology of the chinchilla by giving them raisins?

My response to that questions is: Yes we are - a stressed chin does not need more sugar.
People should not be giving raisins to stressed chinchillas because the sugar will simply be adding to that already in the body and is unnecessary.



It is also worth bearing in mind that high blood glucose levels can cause fitting as well as low blood glucose levels.



Okay, well how would a temporary increase of blood sugar levels adversely affect a chin in the long term? I don't see where it says anywhere of the chins dying or being ill after the test was done?

The point in commenting that the chins were alive and well was partly in response to the anti-testing mentality the author was addressing but also because (as I said above) quite a bit of the research carried out on chins is done post-mortem or the chins are euthanised afterwards.
The chins in the study were healthy, normal chins which were part of a breeding herd so the results should be more applicable to chins in pet or breeding homes.

Isn't there some sort of biological function in having an elevated blood sugar level in times of stress? There must be a reason for their bodies to do that. As we see what happens when they have lowered blood sugar levels, they have seizures.


.................................

I do not see anywhere in the article where it states the increase of the blood sugar levels caused problems for the chins?

They can also have seizures with high blood glucose levels too. Raised blood glucose levels can cause all sorts of problems (for example what diabetes does to the body/physiology) - what we don't know for certain is how raised blood glucose affects the physiology of chins in the long term - just because we don't have those studies doesn't mean we're not doing our chins long term internal damage by giving sugary foods (even occasionally).
Even if the research was carried out and gave conclusive proof, people would still give their chins sugary treats - the research is not there yet and may never be carried out.


I am not suggesting we extrapolate from human to chins BUT we do know that our crappy modern diets are causing all sorts of issues in humans and animals - raised incidences of cancer, diabetes, obesity ..... the list goes on.

As an example - Even manufacturers are cottoning on to the fact that people are looking for more simplistic, natural foods - the swing in chin treats from sugary, seed-filled crap to natural herbs, twigs, leaves etc is being driven by consumers who are trying to 'get back to nature'.


Raisins stick to the chinchilla's teeth - it is the reason why chins grind their teeth after eating them- they are trying to get the sticky, sugary substance off their teeth. Lots of people pooh-pooh the idea of dental caries in chins but I've known of it in a rescue that was fed raisins. Most people would not notice it unless the chin required a full dental and the vet was really good at stopping caries. Doesn't mean it's not an issue - just that it may well get lumped in with the diagnosis of malocclusion.


And what does this have to do with raisins? I saw no mention of raisins in the article causing the increase of blood sugar levels in those chins?

The correlation is simply that the article shows stressed chins can already have raised blood glucose levels.

As I said above, I posted the article quote to highlight that the tradition of giving raisins (more sugar) to a stressed chin is based on a flawed theory - the theory that a stressed chin has a lowered blood glucose level.




People seem to be missing the point - no-one is arguing that chins need a completely sugar-free diet. That's just stupid (as Tab has illustrated using basic physiology) because the body needs a certain amount of sugar in order to function.

Chinchillas are notorious junk food addicts. Give them a shop bought, honey and seed filled stick and they will happily chomp their way right through it - just as a child will happily eat their way through 1Lb of sweets if given the opportunity.
Do that often enough and the risk of dental caries, diabetes (or at least glucose intolerance), obesity, heart disease etc etc are raised...... we don't give our kids 1Lb sweets so why do a similar thing (size comparative) to our chins?


The first thing many chin owners do when they sense a chin is feeling unwell is give them a raisin - on the grounds that the chin would have to be pretty sick not to eat one - but the effects on a slowed gut function (which usually accompanies any illness in a chin) can be catastrophic. Ask anyone who has dealt with bloat or stasis and they will tell you the same thing - no extra sugar.

I don't give my chins raisins and haven't for years. I also don't advocate them as a treat - there are far more healthy options out there.


Are we storing up health issues for chins by giving them extra sugary foods? Possibly.



As I keep saying: just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
 
I have another thought on raisins.
Over the years it has always been a practice to give raisins on two specific occasions.
At a show and when animals are moved from one location to another.
The reason behind this is that they act as a temporary laxative which is needed at stress times such as traveling to shows and back or being shipped or moved to another location.
Raisins will make them thirsty and help them to drink more water as well as act as a mild laxative.
We always recommend when people purchase an animal that they give them 3 raisins per day the first week, 2 raisins a day the second and then a raisin a day after that if they wish.
Of course, if you notice softer droppings – just cut back on the number given.
At a show we will put in 3 or 4 raisins in their feeders – again – it is to make them thirsty and act as a mild laxative to overcome the stress of travel, being at the show, etc.
This has worked very well for us and ranchers we have worked with for over 40 years.

Barbara

I don't claim to know one way or the other on the occasional raisin being good/bad debate BUT if something has worked fine for 40 years for someone I think that in and of itself certainly says something...
 
I don't want to get into the whole ranch thing, I have first hand knowlege as I am a grand daughter of a chinchilla rancher but what goes on on a ranch should stay on a ranch, its just does not apply to pet owners and in this case the thread is about a pet owner asking about raisins as treats, not being used as medicial items during a show, I think the focus of the thread has shifted from the initial intent.
 
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I think I will dig up the article on native plants chins ate and see what sugar levels were in such plants if that info is even available.

Berberis glomerata growths in Las Chinchillas National Reservation. Its blue fruits provide food for chinchillas when they fall. I can not tell their sugar content for sure, but 100g of Berberis vulgaris (red fruits) contains about 25g of sugar (raisins contain at least twice as much sugar).

Berberisglomerata.jpg


I do not feed raisins; there are healthier treats to choose from. Before a car trip, I would use calming herbs instead of raisins.


Here is a list of some plants that wild chins consume:

lycium chilense (http://www.chileflora.com/Florachilena/FloraEnglish/HighResPages/EH0612.htm)

puya berteroniana (http://www.chileflora.com/Florachilena/FloraEnglish/HighResPages/EH0017.htm)

bridgesia incisifolia (http://www.chileflora.com/Florachilena/FloraEnglish/HighResPages/EH0890.htm)

pasto rey (http://www.chileflora.com/Florachilena/FloraEnglish/HighResPages/EH0865.htm)

pingo-pingo (http://www.chileflora.com/Florachilena/FloraEnglish/HighResPages/EH0321.htm)

oxalis carnosa (http://www.chileflora.com/Florachilena/FloraEnglish/HighResPages/EH0710.htm)

glandularia sulphurea (http://www.phytoimages.siu.edu/imgs/pelserpb/na/Verbenaceae_Glandularia_sulphurea_18640.html)

moscharia pinnatifida (http://www.chileflora.com/Florachilena/FloraEnglish/HighResPages/EH2455.htm)

adiantum chilense (http://www.chileflora.com/Florachilena/FloraEnglish/HighResPages/EH0707.htm)

heliotropium stenophyllum (http://www.chileflora.com/Florachilena/FloraEnglish/HighResPages/EH0625.htm)

lobelia polyphylla (http://www.chileflora.com/Florachilena/FloraEnglish/HighResPages/EH0540.htm)

proustia cuneifolia (http://www.chileflora.com/Florachilena/FloraEnglish/HighResPages/EH0237.htm)

porlieria chilensis (http://www.chileflora.com/Florachilena/FloraEnglish/HighResPages/EH0048.htm)

adesmia microphylla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Adesmia_microphylla.jpg)

astephanus geminiflorus (http://www.chilebosque.cl/epiv/astephanus_geminiflorus.html)
 
Barbara made the best point worth noting. MODERATION. Within reasonable limits. Not excessive or extreme. She and Ralph know what works by trial and error. And I would assume the knowledge shared by other ranchers and hobby breeders. And the trusted vet tech.

I give my animals a very small bite of some fruits perhaps two or three times a year. And the evil raisin maybe once or twice a year. And NOT AT THE SAME TIME. They each get one of the smallest raisin I can find in the box. Have they died? No. Have their poops made a severe change within 12 hours? No. Did they go off feed? No.

Show respect for my posting what works for my animals. I would rather agree to dissagree with someone's views then to take attention away from the original post. Thanks Alicyn for posting your comments to the thread. Very interesting.
 
Barbara stated they do not feed them as a treat at all, just for medicinal purposes at shows, not the same thing as we are discussing in this thread-raisins as treats.

I was referring to how they could be properly used for stress of a show and when shippng or moving the animals.
We do not feed them at all. Only under these two situations.

And frankly, where do you draw the line with this term moderation and is tossed around, I mean is a doritio, jelly bean, peanut butter cup, all OK in moderation? Why not? Not a question to the poster above me, just a general one.
 
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And frankly, where do you draw the line with this term moderation and is tossed around, I mean is a doritio, jelly bean, peanut butter cup, all OK in moderation? Why not? Not a question to the poster above me, just a general one.

Maybe we should take the trend away from saying "in moderation" to something more objective like "treats should only constitute 5-15% of the daily diet." I fully support that most things that are given as treats, if only given at that level, should be fine. Make sure to watch the droppings afterwards and decrease or eliminate treat items as necessary.

I'll have to figure out how much the average chin eats on a weight basis, when I get home. I'm curious now.
 
I would like to see glucose tolerance tests done on chins (with various treats) to ascertain the amount of glucose each treat contains and what effects it has on the chins blood glucose levels - but somehow I think I will be waiting forever for that.
 
Dawn, that's why I said I don't recommend raisins as treats. My idea of moderation and a pet owners idea of moderation are very far part. I figure it's better to say give none than to say, give in "moderation." I love chocolate. I could eat an entire bag of Dove candy and love every minute of it. Because I like Dove candy so much, it should be fine for me to give an entire box of raisins to a chin because they love it so much right? And they are so CUTE when they beg for one, aren't they??

I know eating an entire bag of Dove candy is bad for me, but I eat it anyway, so why not my chin?
 
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