Percentage of Pink White babies.

[tunes]

You're reading it wrong Weew. With a standard x pink white pairing you get

25% across the board.

25% Mosaic
25% PW
25% beige
25% standard

ETA: Just re-read that. My apologies. I didn't realize it was a homo-beige PW. Are you sure on that?

 

[ppsamm]

Most people put standards in every other generation, if not more often. As nice as a mutation might be, they aren't as nice as a GOOD standard.

My pink whites come from a standard/pink white pairing most of the time.

does it mean that a standard kit out from a standard/mutation pair will not be as nice as one from a pure standard pair?

 

[weew]

You're reading it wrong Weew. With a standard x pink white pairing you get

25% across the board.

25% Mosaic
25% PW
25% beige
25% standard

ETA: Just re-read that. My apologies. I didn't realize it was a homo-beige PW. Are you sure on that?

My Pink white should a hetero beige, not homo, sorry for giving wrong info. I think i should be getting these: the chances now is 25%.

Sire:

Standard Gray


Dam:

Pink White (Hetero Beige)

Kits:

Beige (Hetero)
25.00%

Pink White (Hetero Beige)
25.00%

Standard Gray
25.00%

White (Mosaic or Silver)
25.00%

 

[Linda]

Both. This really should all be common sense-even for you Linda. I've seen it alot in dogs when backyard breeders are using "crap" dogs-they get more "crap" dogs with genetic problems. I've seen swimmers in purebred dogs. All from poor breeding.

I fully understand the need to outcross and to discontinue lines that produce deleterious traits in the off-spring. I don't understand the need to always take that breeding back to a standard. It's not the case in hamsters (good luck keeping or finding a line of pure goldens or normals without so much inbreeding that they're a detriment to your breeding program). And it's not the case in the dog breeds I'm most familiar with. Take Malamutes. Good luck finding an agouti (in other words a "standard" for their species) in the show ring in America (or in the kennel of any of those breeders). Yes you'll sometimes find them in Europe and other countries, but rarely here. And take the Korean Jindo dog breed. I've got an agouti carrying black foster with me right now, and the Jindo breeders question whether he's pure. The overwhelming majority of Jindos here and in Korea (where they are considered a national treasure) are reds or whites - both mutations which bred to another of the same or to each other will never produce an agouti.

So the need to breed back to a standard every third breeding is not obvious. The need to outcross and to remove animals from breeding that produce deleterious traits is. Your example of poor quality to poor quality equals poor quality is obvious, but I'm assuming the mutes being bred don't fall in that category. And a poor quality standard certainly won't help a line either.

I had read that the sapphire mutation wasn't that strong yet, but I somehow got the mistaken impression that most of the other mutations were fairly strong and well established, and I know I've seen that they can place next to the standards at a national level.
Linda

 

[threewingedfury]

The problem is that the more mutations that you put in the line, the more likely you are to end up with weaker animals. Yes, you can take two very nice mutes and put them together and get a nice animal and then pair it to a mute and get a nice animal, but it's always best to put that offspring back to a standard because quality CAN and most likely will decrease without the standard in the background. There are instances where it doesn't, but we're breeding to improve, so why make the line worse? For instance - I have an extra dark eb male that I have in breeding. He's got great clarity and density, but is absolutely lacking in size and build. Probably weighs 650g, which is small for my animals as they're normally 800g+. His neck isn't the best and he just looks whimpy. Wanna know why? Well his pedigree states Eb to Eb back 3 generations. Even Extra Dark to Dark Eb. Wanna know what he's paired with? He's in a run with 3 extra dark standards that are massive and make up for his lack of neck. They compliment him well and that's how you improve. If I stuck him with a white, most likely I'd only make the line worse, even if it was a high quality white. I stick to putting all of my high quality mutes with high quality standards now that I see how well the standard improves lines. All of my whites are paired to standards, all of my blacks are paired to standards, all of my ebs are paired to standards and my violets are with v/c's. This is my practice alone, and I hope that breeding back to standard will improve the lines. You have to realize that just sticking any standard in the line isn't going to help, but a complimentary quality standard can really improve a line. I used to hate standards until I started showing. I sold out of everything I had, and started back over with top quality standards.

 

[mishalaa]

Deleted post, nevermind.

 

[mishalaa]

Linda - because of the fur trade, chinchillas can't really be compared to other species of pets in regards to breeding. Standards are so strong because they've been mass produced to make the best coats for decades, not because a mutation is inherently weaker. The mutations, with the exception of the black velvet, have not been received quite so well in the fur market and therefore have taken a back seat in most herds. Yes, the goal is to improve the mutations - but because the best of the best standards are kept in standard lines to make the most money in the pelt market, and the second best standards go to improve and/or develop the mute lines, the standards in general will always and should always be superior to mutes.

This is completely separate from inbreeding/linebreeding. If done correctly and knowledgeably, line breeding can be a useful tool.

 

[Becky]

In most cases, a standard out of a mutation and standard pair will not be as nice as one from a standard to standard pair.

It's been said before, but is sooooo important I am going to repeat it. This only applies if the standards are top quality. If you breed a nice mutation to a dirty bellied, small, ratty standard, you aren't improving anything.

And- if you don't attend shows to see what the top standards look like, you really don't know what you should be breeding with.

 

[Bethany]

You put in homo beige pink white, so there is no chance of standard because of it being homo beige.

My pink white girl (from Becky out of a pw/standard) just had 2 PW kits with her pure standard mate. You can't go by the claculator, look at the low percentage that was.

Edit to say: Sorry, I posted a reply to the 2nd page.

 

[Linda]

It's been said before, but is sooooo important I am going to repeat it. This only applies if the standards are top quality. If you breed a nice mutation to a dirty bellied, small, ratty standard, you aren't improving anything.

This is part of what worries me about this thread. The person is in Malaysia. Just breeding to a standard may not improve his animals at all -- and may actually hurt them. Who knows the quality of standards he has access to.

I may be wrong, but what I'm hearing is that the blind rule of breeding to a standard is just that -- a blind rule.

The real concept to be learned and understood is that you breed to animals at least equal to if not better than what you have regardless of whether that animal is a standard or a mute. That's how you improve your lines. You pick animals that have strengths in areas that you need to improve while hopefully being at least equal on your strong areas (or at least not bad enough in those areas to pull down your lines). You then carefully pick the best kits from those litters, those that are an improvement to their parents, to further your breeding lines.

There have been multiple different mutes who have beaten out all or close to all standards at nationals and other shows. Breeding to a high quality mute will not be a detriment to your line just because it's a mute. I'm seeing references on this forum to people breeding lines of black velvets and beiges that don't need to be bred to standards. So it's not breeding to the standard that matters. It's breeding to a high quality animal, be that a standard or not, that really matters.

Linda

 

[threewingedfury]

The thing is - we're not saying that breeding mute x mute is the wrong the to do. How else would we have TOV whites, brown velvets, tans, etc? The problem is, people sometimes see all of these colors and think that by adding more color to the line they will produce more color. This weakens the animal, even if it is a high quality animal. If you don't put quality standards somewhere in your lines (it doesn't have to be EVERY generation), you're not going to improve the line as it should be.

When you say mutes are beating out standards at Nationals and other shows, you're correct. We're not saying that mutes are continuously weaker than standards. There are plenty of very nice mutes. The winning mutes just show that we're working harder at breeding better quality mutes, which mostly means putting a quality standard in the lines. A standard doesn't always have to be the best in the show, but the main idea is realizing that (quality standards) are normally herd improvement animals. Ranchers have proved this over the years. Small breeders have proved this over the years. My previous herd showed me what putting too much mutation together will do.

Also - it's not that difficult to ship animals. I think the OP mentioned Ritterspach earlier. Ritterspach ships all over, Shoots also ships International - the OP has access to high quality standards if they wish to have them.

 

[Becky]

Linda,

You're right and wrong. Breeding to a crappy standard improves nothing. However, in pretty much every case, breeding back to a great standard is better than breeding back to a great mute.

Sometimes you have to breed back to a mute to get the color you want. The problem is that many people use that as an excuse to put a every color imaginable together in an animal. Putting multiple mutations into an animal (I'm talking more than 2), you are almost certainly hurting the quality of the animal. Of course, that doesn't have anything to do with the quality of pet the animal will be, but a good quality animal can be just as good a pet.

There have been some mutes that have beat out standards at shows (MCBA shows, since ECBC shows are separate). That doesn't happen often, though. If you look back in the lines of those mutes that did so well, you will pretty much always find standards. Overall, the standard is a much stronger quality animal. Black velvets are the best of the mutations.

Whoever said that they don't need standards in black and beige lines is crazy! Vin Somovia has been the top mutation breeder at ECBC nationals for a lot of years (10+). He does so well because he has access to amazing standard animals. They are crucial to producing good mutes.

I keep seeing people mention that they are working hard to pair up their animals carefully. You are right, you match strengths and weaknesses. What bothers me, though, is that people are matching up their animals "thinking" they are doing the right thing. If they haven't been to a show though (and don't spend a lot of time with one of the ranchers who have been doing this for years), how do they know what they are looking for? Have they listened to an expert talk about their animals? Do they know (not just think) what the strengths and weaknesses of their animals are? I know that I started out wrong. I just put animals together and figured I knew enough to be fine. I never planned on going to a show, because I figured it wasn't necessary. Once I attended my first one though, I knew I was wrong. I spent many, many shows sitting in the middle of the front row, listening to everything the judges said, trying to see what they were talking about. I learned a ton at the shows, and also from the hours and hours I spent (and spend) with ranchers, learning everything they will share with me.

I know shows are spread out, but if you want to breed and breed well, you figure out a way to get to them. Find someone and car pool. Travel where you need to.

I know Weew is not from the US, but I know he was importing animals. He may not be able to make a show, but he can import proven show animals, or animals graded by a judge. He can also be careful to breed for quality and not just fancy colors.

 

[mishalaa]

So it's not breeding to the standard that matters. It's breeding to a high quality animal, be that a standard or not, that really matters.

Linda

Yes, but in general, standards (pure, high quality), are better than the best mutes. Those mutes taking GSC ahead of the standards are few and far between. And you have to remember that shows are a snapshot of animals that day - when you're breeding these animals you have to consider more than the show results.

 

[Linda]

There have been some mutes that have beat out standards at shows (MCBA shows, since ECBC shows are separate). That doesn't happen often, though.

I quickly ran the numbers for the top four animals at Nationals for each of the last five years -- so 20 animals. Eleven of those were standards (55%) and 9 were mutes (45%). So it's pretty much even. If you just want to take the Grand Show Champion, three of the five (60%) are mutes and two (40%) are standards. Again, it's pretty much even.

They don't post most of the other results, but I have a couple of questions.

1. Is a first place in a mute equal to a first place in a standard? I would think so. If people list anything about the show quality of their animal in the classifieds, it's whether they placed first or second. If a first means the same thing for mutes and standards, it gives a comparison. And if the standards are stronger, you would expect a lot more firsts to be given for standards than mutes meaning a first place in a mute really means something. I have no clue what type of percentages are given first places, but I'd guess that varies by show and perhaps even by judge.

2. And does a first place at a sanctioned show mean the same as a first place at a field day?

3. Is a first place on the west coast equal to a first place on the east coast or anywhere in between?

4. Is first place at an MCBA show equal to a first place at an Empress show?

I'm hoping to hear that the standards are equal across types of shows, geographical regions, organizations, etc. If so, it makes it much easier to compare animals. If not, just listing a first place at a show can mean just about anything.

I think the OP mentioned Ritterspach earlier. Ritterspach ships all over, Shoots also ships International - the OP has access to high quality standards if they wish to have them.

I'm sorry, but I haven't been able to figure out who an OP is from the context. Can you spell it out?

And you have to remember that shows are a snapshot of animals that day - when you're breeding these animals you have to consider more than the show results.

I couldn't agree with you more. I keep saying this, but people keep coming back to a show as *the* assessment of an animal. I don't want people picking my pairs for me. If I adopt a rancher and just have them pick my pairs, I'm just an extension of that rancher. I might as well be their employee. I just haven't found it easy to learn about chins. The resources are not there to learn. It's all about the shows, and they are few and far between -- and only give a snapshot of that animal on that day as seen by that judge. I know I'm at one end of the country, but there just aren't many shows in this third of the country, and that's if the weather is good enough to even make it to the area of the show. I have to keep my job to support me and my animals, and I can't just take a week here and a week there to go half or two thirds across the country for a show even if the weather cooperates.

Linda

 

[mishalaa]

There is debate about this, but some feel judging is based on a curve, and I tend to agree. Judges are really strict about judging standards, and tend to be a bit softer on the mutes, because there is that difference in quality.

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. A first place animal should be an ideal animal - for it's color for what we (breeders/ranchers collectively) currently have. In other words, a first place sapphire will be one of the best examples of a sapphire to have been produced this year. However, I do not expect a first place sapphire to hold a candle to a second place standard. Some take fault with this kind of judging which I understand, but I feel that if all chins were judged without that kind of a curve, it would dampen the efforts of those of us trying hard to improve the mutes, and kind of slaughter the perception of which animals should be bred. Why bother if the best sapphires I produce place only third? If no sapphires are taking firsts or better, how do I know which ones to use in my herd to keep improving them? So I'm all for this curve, but I know some feel the judges should be equally hard on all chins, mute or not.

Now when it comes to the top of the table - I do think they should be equally hard to pick the GSC. But again, some feel the curve exists there, too. A mute may win just because it's an exceptional animal for its color - even though the standard may be better, there are hundreds of other standards across the country just as good, but a white/beige/black/whatever this good is hard to find, so it wins GSC. Whether or not this is true, I can't say as I'm not qualified to pick a GSC. I just know that it's up to the judge, and judging is entirely subjective.

That said, judging across the country and between the two organizations, I think, is pretty much the same. However, they are stricter at the National shows than they are at the state shows, and stricter at the state shows than at field days. So you have to keep that in mind, too.

OP is board-speak for Original Poster - which in this thread is weew.

 

[eroomlorac]

I'm sorry, but I haven't been able to figure out who an OP is from the context. Can you spell it out?

Well,I have read this thread but otherwise stayed out of it because I know nothing about breeding and genetics but this one I can answer.

An OP is the 'Original Poster', the person who started any given thread.

 

[tunes]

1. Is a first place in a mute equal to a first place in a standard? I would think so. If people list anything about the show quality of their animal in the classifieds, it's whether they placed first or second. If a first means the same thing for mutes and standards, it gives a comparison. And if the standards are stronger, you would expect a lot more firsts to be given for standards than mutes meaning a first place in a mute really means something. I have no clue what type of percentages are given first places, but I'd guess that varies by show and perhaps even by judge.

What organization were you doing percentages of to come up with your numbers? The reason I ask is, Empress and MCBA are totally different. There may be a grand show champion mutation at Empress, but it is not put up against the standards. Standards are a completely different, separate, show. The mutations at an Empress show never get into the standard show.

If you're going by MCBA judging, then I suspect what you are seeing at the top of the show table is Ralph Shoots black velvets, which, as Becky pointed out, really are in a different class of mutation. There has been so much work on black velvets that I sometimes wonder why they are even considered mutations anymore.

As far as an animal placing first, yes, there are top mutations. But you need to remember that they are top mutations within their color class. At a show, the animals are classified by color. So you'll have a color class white, a color class beige, etc. Then all of those animals are placed on one table and judged against each other, which puts them up against the top standards. An ebony is the only, what I consider "true" mutation, to have won MCBA Nationals, and that was an extra dark bred by the Woods. That animal was outstanding and it took all of Shoots top animals, which let me tell you, does not often happen.

At smaller shows, yes, everybody knows they judge differently. I doubt a first place animal at a field day would hold it's own against a first place Nationals animal, even more so when you get to the grand and reserve show animals. The animals at the national level are just out of this world. Every breeder brings the very best of the best to nationals.

2. And does a first place at a sanctioned show mean the same as a first place at a field day?

No. I don't think anybody will argue the point that field days are easier. It's to bring people in, to get their feet wet. It's a much more relaxed atmosphere and it's meant to be. It's supposed to be a fun day to get everybody comfortable with showing and knowing what to look for in an animal so that they can better their breeding.

3. Is a first place on the west coast equal to a first place on the east coast or anywhere in between?

That's going to depend on the judge, how the animal looked the day it was shown, etc. You can feasibly take the exact same animal and show it at an Empress show and an MCBA show, even on the same day, and it would get totally different marks. Sometimes, a judges personal preferences count heavily into who wins.

4. Is first place at an MCBA show equal to a first place at an Empress show?

Again, that depends on the judge and the animal being shown. I think on the nationals level, a top standard is a top standard. Mutation wise, and I may be wrong it's just the impression I get, at Empress they are like the ugly step sisters, hence the reason for grading them separately. Standards are held in the highest regard pelt wise, and the rest are just along for the ride. MCBA puts all of them together, which most people agree is an excellent idea, because it really lets you know how the mutations are doing up against the backbone of the chinchilla breeding industry - the standards.

 

[Becky]

Recently, there have been more mutes winning the top prizes, showing that some breeders are working hard to improve mutes. Remember, though, that those are the best of the mutes. Overall, standards are much stronger.

No, not every show is judged the same, although they are getting closer. National shows are judged extremely tough. If your animals get a 1st place at nationals, they are truly 1st place animals. A first place at a field day might be just as nice, but a 1st at a field day might be a 2nd at Nationals (if the two animals were the exact same quality on the two days).

I didn't say that a rancher would choose your pairings for you. The point is that you can only learn so much from reading and looking at pictures. Some things can only be learned in person. That's where the ranchers and shows come in. You listen and learn everything you can and then you go home, look at your animals and decide what to do with them.

 

[ppsamm]

Also - it's not that difficult to ship animals. I think the OP mentioned Ritterspach earlier. Ritterspach ships all over, Shoots also ships International - the OP has access to high quality standards if they wish to have them.

Oh, it is never an easy thing to ship. We have did it before shipping chins from Ritterspach.

Besides that, we have enquired to ship from some ranchers such as woods or bowens but its just can't work out due some declaration documents, the ranchers need to submit to our authorities and allows the animals to be shipped in.

I wish it is much easier to obtain quality chins over here. So far, there seems no other better choices besides shipping from chinchillas.com.

Any hobby breeders willing to ship?

 

[threewingedfury]

Oh, it is never an easy thing to ship. We have did it before shipping chins from Ritterspach.

Besides that, we have enquired to ship from some ranchers such as woods or bowens but its just can't work out due some declaration documents, the ranchers need to submit to our authorities and allows the animals to be shipped in.

I wish it is much easier to obtain quality chins over here. So far, there seems no other better choices besides shipping from chinchillas.com.

Any hobby breeders willing to ship?

As I mentioned above, Shoots ships all the time. Each time I call and inquire about new animals they tell me they just shipped out a certain color, or a certain animal I would like went to such and such country. I know when I went up to Ohio in August to pick up animals, I had to leave their place early because they had to travel to NY to ship a ton of chins to another country.

I personally have never shipped chins, but I've shipped sugar gliders. They are on the opposite spectrum of chins - we have to keep them warm, so we don't ship during cold months. I haven't had any major issues with shipping the gliders, but it can be a pain in the butt. I can't get nice morphs in NC so I have them shipped in from all over the US, and if anyone outside of NC is interested in my gliders, I have them shipped out, but it's around $175 for the ticket.

Also - Linda, I have the 2007 MCBA National Grand Show Champ - he's a extra dark ebony male bred by Woods that I purchased as a non-breeder back in August because he has severe hair ring issues and can't properly clean himself. I have to check him for hair rings daily, but in the end it will be worth it if he does produce for me, as I have found him mating with two of my standard females. He could possibly be sterile, but I'm not too worried about it, he's a gorgeous animal. I have to say that he's an amazing animal, but I have standards that I pretty much think are better quality than he is. He's the best extra dark eb I've personally ever seen even though he's older and now beginning to oxidize, but I'm sure there are many standards that could beat him out. He was just in the best show shape on the day of the show, that's it. Also, going back to his pedigree, he has a standard in each generation - he's not bred from mute x mute.