Old chin owner with a new chin issue

[nuvola09]

New to the board, so... hi.

Looking for some input on a situation with a newly acquired chin. My background: chinchilla owner for 6 years of a 10-year-old female named Sashimi. I used to have a male, also, but he was inbred and passed away several years ago.

My female gets restless sometimes and, although she's always been a bit of a loner, I considered getting her a friend. I kept her and my male separated for the entire time I owned them both because I didn't want them to mate. They became so platonic that he stopped trying to mate with her, and they began cohabitating right up until his death. Therefore, I know she's capable of acclimating to another chin.

Several weeks ago I got a 5-year-old female moasic from a woman who turned out to be an "unofficial" breeder. She hides the fact that she breeds right up until you're standing in her house. Then she tells me that the female for sale has been pregnant 7 times in her short 5 year life. The cage conditions are (IMHO) deplorable. She has rancher cages which measure 12"x24" and she mostly keeps two chins in each cage. The are all wire bottom, and the females wear metal collars to prevent movement between the cage "windows." There is lots of built-up hair around the cages. This is all housed in a residential trailer. She has upwards of 15 or 20 chins in her kitchen.

Anyway, I get home with this new female named Mazie, and she's not acclimating well. I realized that this isn't just initial anxiety about being in a new space. She will not be touched or handled (except tiny bits on the face when she's a little relaxed), sprays you if you get too close, and has what I would describe as episodes of pure panic. She does laps around her cage, jumping off the sides, and latches onto the cage roof with her teeth and shakes violently. She then plops down on her side; I briefly thought she had died. I provided her with a chinchiller and a pet store cardboard tube for her to hide in. She loves the chinchiller so much that she keeps her back legs on it and reeeeaches as far as possible for stuff that she wants. I can only assume this is from being in wire bottom cages her whole life.

So, I email the breeder because I'm beginning to get concerned that I can't get my hands on the chin. I ask if she's always like this. The breeder tells me that she doesn't handle her females because if they're pregnant, she doesn't want to compromise the pregnancy. Therefore, none of them are used to being held. She also says that when they're babies, she sometimes "forgets" to handle them. She admits that many of her chins are, technically, not tame. She defends her use of rancher cages, says that wire bottoms are fine, and says ALL her chins sleep on their sides (and I informed her Mazie does NOT sleep on her side since the introduction of the chinchiller stone).

She then describes the original breeder she got my chin and bunches of others from, who kept them in 4 foot long cages. When brought into her smaller environment, none of them reacted well. Several of the females spray. She even has to use a foot barrel lid to keep off one of the aggressive males so he "doesn't get too close" to her when she feeds them. WTF!? She then has a revelation mid-email that she should sell all the chins from that breeder to people who will "let them run around and get exercise" because they are so "wild."

I'm explaining all this because I don't have enough chinchilla experience to know whether or not this female that I got is rehab-able. I'm in a bad catch 22. If I can't handle her, I can't get her into my chin-safe area for her to run around, and I also can't properly introduce her to my female. If they can't acclimate, then I can't get her into a larger, safer cage where she might be happier. The whole point of me getting the second female was as a companion to my first, but I've run into a situation where I may have to house them separately for the foreseeable future.

I'm sorry to be so long winded on my first post, but her panic attacks and the rattling are wearing at my nerves, and I'm getting worried that none of it will ever progress. Advice and tactics welcome. Also, I'm concerned for the well being of the chins owned by this woman, and wonder if there's anything I can/should do in regards to that.

HEAPS of thank you in advance.

 

[Narcissus]

I personally think every chin is worth trying for. Even if she never likes being touched, she deserves to be loved. I would give her some time to adjust to her new surroundings. She might just be one of those chins that is flighty.
Not that im defending the breeder you got her from, I didnt see it. But, please understand that most of what you said is not "neglect". Breeding females need to be in small cages, it is not safe for momma or babies to have large cages. You shouldn't handle breeding females, it is also dangerous to them. Breeding runs are safe cages for breeding animals, the females really dont seem to mind the collars.
Now, I dont believe in wire bottomed cages for breeders, and I think all chins in breeding should have good temperments.

as far as the female you bought is concerned, give her time. if you absolutely need to handle her then do so. But with a little patience and love I bet she will calm down

 

[nuvola09]

Thank you for the reply.

I understand that my post is a bit frantic and judgmental, so I apologize if it comes off harsh. I'm certainly not angry with the chinchilla or unwilling to house her. My concern is, basically, can she be trained out of her current habits? Can she be tamed out of her current state?

My frustration is mostly rooted in the fact that this woman misled me to believe that 1) her chin was tame, 2) she wasn't a breeder, all the while 3) I gave her all of my information and intentions up front, and then she knowingly gave me a chin who she had an inkling might not mix well with another or easily go through a transition. She admitted after the fact that this chin had a history of being difficult, just like the others from the same original breeder.

It's also not that I find her lack of handling pregnant females deplorable. It's that she withheld this info from me when I had previously asked about the chinchilla's demeanor before the sale. She said later, "I could have sworn I told you I never handle them." She didn't, and it's obvious that she withheld that fact because any potential owner would hear that and reconsider. She didn't want to lose a sale (albeit a cheap sale because she was simply unloading a nonviable female, and I thought I was in a re-homing deal). This woman's solutions to my problem were things like "feed her raisins" and "hold her in a towel". How can I do that if I can't go near her without getting sprayed?

All of this upsets me because I did not appreciate the environment this chin came from, she admits that others she has are ill-tempered and unhappy, and the current state of my home is altered because of the noise and my inability to intervene. Unfortunately, I'm not someone who handles stress very well (not unlike most chins) and so the noise and panic episodes are tough on my nerves.

My biggest concern at the moment is getting her to a point where she doesn't spray. If anyone has any experience with this, I'd appreciate input. I'm unsure if a 5-year-old spraying chin has the ability to be trained into accepting human contact.

 

[akane]

Katsu wasn't that bad but he was used in a run system for breeding and we were told he was hyper, would bounce back and forth against the walls of his cage when people approached, and would never be a pet. When we put him in the 24x24" temporary cage next to our fn to introduce to our female he actually smashed in to the sides of the cage several times. After a month of having a house to hide in, branches to chew on, and twice daily treats of oatmeal, cheerios, and apple twigs we can now pet him on the head and he will come out to beg for treats. I still have to empty the FN of everything and chase him around a bit to catch him for exercise and dust bathing in the bathroom while I clean the cage and change out the fleece. He slips fur twice a week multiple times on exercise days because of that. He's still making progress though. Last exercise day I scooped him up off a covered feed bucket and just had him sitting on both my palms while I kissed his head. He made no attempt to escape. I did immediately set him back down to run off though.

My shoulder finally healed from a couple weeks ago when I was trying to hold him without a shirt on and he tore my shoulder up while I had him by the base of the tail to keep him from flying over me which he's done before and splatted on the floor. Luckily he just wanted back in his cage so he jumped on the shelf attached to the cage stand and with my husband's help we managed to scoop him up and quickly slip him back in his cage.

I think given time in a roomier and more comfortable setting with escape places like houses and tunnels plus lots of treats most chins will eventually come around. They may never sit still to be picked up or become cuddly but they'll at least stop risking harm to themselves and interact positively with you on some level.

 

[6Dusters]

Some animals come around. And some do not. A good breeder knows their animals. Even if they are in a run.

You have had her for a couple weeks. She still needs time to adjust. She finds comfort at your house in the form of the chiller. It's a good start. I may suggest you talk to her before you enter her area. I walk past mine at 5:30 in the morning and just say aloud, " its just me." It keeps some from "bolting" in the cage. I don't keep a radio on. Just an air machine in their room. So its pretty quiet when I come down to make coffee.

She may be traumatized living at the previous home. Or she may just be high strung. High strung animals IMO never calm down. I got rid of a breeder for doing that. The person who bred her told me she was spirited. I didn't think she would be that high strung. Too much for me. I found her a pet home.

I have one old girl here that I took in as a rescue with her cage mate. All I know is that she came from a bad situation. I have no idea how old she is. She's been here for about 6 years I think. She's now blind in one eye due to cataracts. She has NEVER let me scratch her. She will let me touch her back legs once in a while and push my hand away more times than not. Last week she finally let me scratch her. I almost fell over. She is not high strung. Just anti social for the most part. Since her cage mate died a year or so ago, she allows me to smooch her. She will come to the cage side when I call her name. Olivia has always showed me how thankful she has been here. Your chin is letting you know by the simple means of taking pleasure in the chiller.

Best of luck

 

[ticklechin]

The first chin I actually paid money for and picked out because I wanted him was from a ranch-chin when I got him was a flying freakazoid, I thought for sure he would kill himself trying to get away from me whenever I walked into the room. He did calm down after a couple of months in a pet environment, there is always hope for any chin. I have also had some tough nut rescues that were physically abused and were aggressive and attacked and drew blood-those take forever to break, the longest took 6 years.

 

[BookWorm]

When I first got one of my chins, she would not let me touch her, but she would allow me to transfer her to the safe play area via travel carrier. You may try that with your new girl. Of course, since she's still so wild, I don't think it would be a good idea to introduce your current chin to her yet, but at least she might get some of her extra energy off in play.

 

[nuvola09]

Thank you all for the input, it makes me very hopeful.

@Bookworm - that would be my ideal, to get her to my safe room to run around and let her approach me at her convenience when she's free. But I can't seem to remove her from the cage on my own because of the spraying. She's in a small-ish rabbit cage which the breeder gave me, but it's slightly too wide to take through the doorways of my apartment, or else I would simply relocate the cage into the safe room whenever I want to let her out. She is now so apprehensive, she wouldn't get inside of a dust bath when it was presented to her... or else I would simply transport her in the bath.

As of right now, the plan is to re-acclimate her to a dust bath so she can be moved around while inside, put in the safe room to run around by herself (and me), and benign treats (cheerios?) whenever she approaches me. If any of this sounds like a bad plan, please feel free to redirect me.

The two cages are situated next to each other (they were in separate rooms for some time), so the two of them have technically "met", although I think my old lady chin is making a feeble attempt to establish herself. It seems that they often try to get each other's attention, and but one is ignoring the other. They're not on the same wavelength yet.

It's the aggressive spraying that concerns me the most, in addition to the insane cage rattling. If I can get her to run around on her own and get more used to me and stop the spraying, that's fine. My older female was skittish when I first got her, and for years would not voluntarily be caught. The difference here is the spraying, and aggression.

I neglected to mention that on the day of the sale, Mazie had a split lip and was bleeding. The woman didn't know the origin of the cut, and thought another chin had nipped her. Upon further thinking, she thought maybe Mazie had given the cut to herself by chewing on this hard plastic sheeting things she uses to put between the cages sometimes (certain cage doors are also lined in plastic, another thing I found unsavory about the establishment). Since seeing her in action, I was concerned the lip cut came from bar chewing and she caught herself on a piece of the metal. And also because the floor of the cage is not very fine mesh, the running and shaking made me worried she might catch her feet between the bars. All the more reason for me to want to move her to a better cage, but of course I can't do that until we go through the process of taming and then meeting my female.

Clearly I have been panicking about her wellbeing and lack of potential to improve, but all of your input has been very helpful and I am feeling better about the situation. Thank you.

 

[Narcissus]

I have one girl who used to spray me every time I walked past her cage. I made it a point to reach in and pick her up everyday. She sprayed me a lot, but I just ignored her and picked her up by the base of her tail. after about a year of doing this everyday she has come to understand that spraying doesn't scare me and ill pick her up anyways. She no longer sprays me, and even seems to enjoy our cuddle moment. although, she will spray my husband still if he hovers by her cage to much...

 

[nuvola09]

The breeder is now requesting I sell Mazie back to her, saying, "She misses her family more than I thought she would.... No distance will be too much to get our beloved back."

 

[nuvola09]

To give this additional context, the breeder also suggested that I use what you folks commonly refer to as the "death ball" so that she can exercise.

Comments like that make me not trust this woman, and have concern for her remaining animals and who she sells them to. She has also casually mentioned that sometimes she forgets to feed or re-water all the cages, and she has a male who chirps at her when certain chins are going hungry.

In short, I won't be returning the chinchilla. I do, however, want to go about things the right way. Feedback here is greatly appreciated and be helpful going forward.

 

[Riven]

She needs a lot of places to hide, while you think you're giving her an ideal chin environment, if she grew up in small cages, she's actually terrified of the open spaces and feels very volunerable.

Better get on your patience pants! Get a tube of old fashioned oats or supplement and sit with some in your hand patiently once or twice a day. She'll come around. Let her come to you. Usually I say the opposite with a new chin, but a sprayer is different than a runner. It will take time... a lot of time. And it has to be on her terms. She's terrified.

 

[gizandcharlie]

That makes me angry too.. she clearly has no idea what she's doing with the chinchillas. I think in her mind she doesn't think she's doing anything wrong. I know I yell at my mom ALL the time for feeding my chinchillas the dried bananas (she'll give them like three in a row) and i'll catch her and try to explain why they can't have them. This is somewhat minor to what your breeder has been doing.. But the point is some people are just very hard headed and think that what they're doing is okay, even when you tell them why they're wrong.
My first chinnie was from a local pet store (very reputable though, and they get their animals from a breeder) and he was PETRIFIED of me for like two months. But he got used to me and now when he's playing in my room he'll jump on things just so he can reach to jump onto my shoulders and hangout there. It just takes a lot of patience, and I suppose you have to deal with the spraying if you want to get her to like you. Sometimes I think you have to force love on them (lol) and eventually they learn to accept it and feel appreciative of you!

That's just my input though!

 

[6Dusters]

The breeder is now requesting I sell Mazie back to her, saying, "She misses her family more than I thought she would.... No distance will be too much to get our beloved back."

Hmmm. Has upwards of twenty and wants this chin back?? The same person who doesn't check her chins to see if they need food/water? Can you say "hoarder?" :facepalm:
Sorry......just had to add that.

 

[e.murphy518]

I hope you just keep on trying to help her acclimate and trust you and that everything works out! I have been very lucky with my chins as far as personality goes so I don't have any experience with difficult situations such as yours. But I have been watching this thread and I am hoping that everything ends up going well, and I think she is very lucky that you bought her...and that you are not willing to give her back!

 

[nuvola09]

Can you say "hoarder?" :facepalm:

You're not kidding. The trailer they live in was strait out of an episode of Hoarders, with their personal belongings in piles in the living room. The trailer has a distinct smell because everything is very dirty.

@gizandcharlie - My mother used to want to feed mine raisins all day long! Uggh. You're exactly right with the breeder thinking she's not doing anything wrong. She's under a huge misconception that her chins are, in fact, happy and good candidates for pets. Reuniting this chin with her daughter is a Band-Aid for the behavior. This woman has no desire to actually connect with the animals so that they are more comfortable, or move the non-breeders into more appropriate housing (all of them, breeding or not, reside in these runs all the time).

I can't tell you how much all this input has helped my state of mind, which will allow me to put in the proper work going forward. Even through these manic episodes, I have noticed her (sometimes) willingly recognizing my presence when I come near, which seems to be motivated more by curiosity than fear. I also want to invest in one of those small solid bottom "starter" cages. I hate that I have to purchase a second cage, which I was specifically trying to avoid, but if she needs to be sequestered for an extensive period of time, I need to get this filthy wire rabbit cage out of the equation. FYI, the large cage my other female lives in is that big corner unit cage by Prevue Hendryx with the ramps taken out. I love it, and it's too bad they can't share yet.

Are oats the best option for unsugary "treats" to feed her as a contact reward? Is there anything else I could safely give her a high volume of that mimics a treat, so that she understands she's being rewarded for interacting with me? Cheerios, shredded wheat, pieces of carrot? I've never really fed my other chin any of that stuff, she just gets the occasional dried raisin/cranberry/cherry.

Thanks!