C
Chinniechantel
Guest
Chilly should not live with Franklin. I would separate them immediately. Much better to do this than to chance something terrible happening with them mating.
Need some help: 2 chins (1 new, 1 old)
- Thread starter ZeroG
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ZeroG
Chinchilla Whisperer
They are already in separate cages on opposite ends of the same room. What terrible would happen? Or are you saying that the two of them mating would be terrible?
I assume that a male chin can tell when their are females near them that are cycling. Would a lack of contact between the two of the explain his recent aggressiveness? Franklin has not been around other Chinchillas since he was a baby, and at first he was OK with the presence of Chilly, but shortly after he became really aggressive and runs around a little crazy in his cage and bites a lot more.
Cuddlebug
Well-known member
Yes, they can smell when a female is in heat. Since they are in the same room, he probably knows if sh is or isn't. Unless you plan on breeding, do not let them have any contact. It only takes a couple of seconds for a couple of chins to mate. By the time you could get to them, it would be a done deal.
ZeroG
Chinchilla Whisperer
No contact at all? That kind of sucks, I was hoping they could at least be friends.
Do the females have an established cycle, or does it very from female to female?
Is there away I will know when she is in heat?
Can they be together when she is not and I can separate them before the time comes?
H
HaleyGoBoom
Guest
I don't know the answer about knowing when the female is in heat but I really wouldn't risk it.
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nibblesmama
Guest
You can always get Franklin neutered. Then at least they can have "safe" play time out and about. I took my Dale in and found out he was already neutered (phew!). He's 10 and had at least 3 owners that I know of, so at least one of them was responsible.
I have a sprayer too. Kimaya is a little spraying turd. Someone emailed me and said to put on a plastic glove and when I reach in for her and she sprays to hold up my hand and deflect it back at her. I did that ONCE (I had a sandwich baggie on my hand) and she hasn't tried to spray me since. She'll rear-up and do the little dance, but she won't spray. :dance3:
I have a sprayer too. Kimaya is a little spraying turd. Someone emailed me and said to put on a plastic glove and when I reach in for her and she sprays to hold up my hand and deflect it back at her. I did that ONCE (I had a sandwich baggie on my hand) and she hasn't tried to spray me since. She'll rear-up and do the little dance, but she won't spray. :dance3:
Cuddlebug
Well-known member
Zero G.
Yes,,females do have an established cycle. It can vary some from one female to the next. I am not positive, please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that it is just over a month in length. Most of the time you cannot tell for sure if a female is in heat. There are some out there that have a discharge, but it is so slight that most people would not even notice it.
Since it is difficult to know for sure, it is best that they not have any contact at all. You could, as mentioned above, look into getting him neuatered and then the could be together all the time.
Yes,,females do have an established cycle. It can vary some from one female to the next. I am not positive, please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that it is just over a month in length. Most of the time you cannot tell for sure if a female is in heat. There are some out there that have a discharge, but it is so slight that most people would not even notice it.
Since it is difficult to know for sure, it is best that they not have any contact at all. You could, as mentioned above, look into getting him neuatered and then the could be together all the time.
ZeroG
Chinchilla Whisperer
Another Update.... 
I reached out to a local Chinchilla farm (http://www.valleyviewchinchillas.com/) for some advise and though I would share it with the rest of you.
Spraying
They said get a spray bottle with clean water and spray her back. They do not believe that there will be an issue with mold, but if there is to call them back and they will let me know how to deal with it.
Biting
Pretty much the same as spraying. You can either give them a good thumb on the nose with your thumb (hard enough to sting), or spray them if you don't want to be physical.
Mating
They said it something that I really do not have to worry about for around 10 months since the two are new to each other. However, there is a chance that it could happen and that the female will expell a plug if it does. If you find the plug count down 111 days, and you'll be seeing little ones.
Introductions
They said not to be affraid of tough love, and that I should start putting them together everyday supervised for about fifteen minutes. Also, swap their cages everyday. This will get them use to each other and their associated sents.
Update
This week I started putting them together in the bathroom every night for about 15 minutes. It's so much fun to watch them interact. There is a little bit of spraying and a little biting, but for the most part they just chase each other around the whole time. I picked them up and put one on each shoulder and I guess due to the confined space of the shoulders they don't fight at all while their up there. It's so cute!
I also, got a water bottle and have begun using it. Chilly still tries to spray when you try to pick her up out of the cage, but when she reers up, I give her a good blast and can pick her up with no problem.
The last couple of days I have also started swaping their cages. They seem to go crazy for the first few minutes that they're in the new cage, but they relax and are good for most of the night.
I'll keep everyone posted on there progress.
I reached out to a local Chinchilla farm (http://www.valleyviewchinchillas.com/) for some advise and though I would share it with the rest of you.
Spraying
They said get a spray bottle with clean water and spray her back. They do not believe that there will be an issue with mold, but if there is to call them back and they will let me know how to deal with it.
Biting
Pretty much the same as spraying. You can either give them a good thumb on the nose with your thumb (hard enough to sting), or spray them if you don't want to be physical.
Mating
They said it something that I really do not have to worry about for around 10 months since the two are new to each other. However, there is a chance that it could happen and that the female will expell a plug if it does. If you find the plug count down 111 days, and you'll be seeing little ones.
Introductions
They said not to be affraid of tough love, and that I should start putting them together everyday supervised for about fifteen minutes. Also, swap their cages everyday. This will get them use to each other and their associated sents.
Update
This week I started putting them together in the bathroom every night for about 15 minutes. It's so much fun to watch them interact. There is a little bit of spraying and a little biting, but for the most part they just chase each other around the whole time. I picked them up and put one on each shoulder and I guess due to the confined space of the shoulders they don't fight at all while their up there. It's so cute!
I also, got a water bottle and have begun using it. Chilly still tries to spray when you try to pick her up out of the cage, but when she reers up, I give her a good blast and can pick her up with no problem.
The last couple of days I have also started swaping their cages. They seem to go crazy for the first few minutes that they're in the new cage, but they relax and are good for most of the night.
I'll keep everyone posted on there progress.
addictedtochins
Socially inept
OMG, everything they told you is stupid and dangerous. I feel sorry for your chins, you have good advice from lots of people here. Your chin is going to get fungus and pregnant and it was all 100% preventable and forwarned. At least stop now, better late than never. Please for the sake of your animals.
Dolyphinm
Well-known member
If a male meets a female for the first time, he might just breed with her right then and there. Please no more play times until you look into getting him neutered.
One of them could be a carrier of malo and it's not fun to deal with. I have a malo girl and for her getting it around 2 years of age I am nervous that my time with her is now limited(things have been good since her first filing so far so ::knocks on wood:: ). Malo is when their teeth are overgrowing and roots can elongate from it and eventually crack their jaw bones and the roots can grow into the brain. It's very painful on a chin. They need regular filings if it isn't to the point of roots cracking the bones and after the filings they need to be hand fed critical care(a mushy form of food for cases like this or when chins go off their feed)
One of them could be a carrier of malo and it's not fun to deal with. I have a malo girl and for her getting it around 2 years of age I am nervous that my time with her is now limited(things have been good since her first filing so far so ::knocks on wood:: ). Malo is when their teeth are overgrowing and roots can elongate from it and eventually crack their jaw bones and the roots can grow into the brain. It's very painful on a chin. They need regular filings if it isn't to the point of roots cracking the bones and after the filings they need to be hand fed critical care(a mushy form of food for cases like this or when chins go off their feed)
Ash
Trouble....
Spraying with the waterbottle is just going to encourage her to keep spraying back because she's going to get even more annoyed.
And DO NOT LET THEM TOGETHER. :banghead: Unless you've gotten your male neutered in the last few days and he's already healed, you need to STOP putting them together. Babies are cute and cuddly, yes, but what happens when your female can't pass the kits because they're too big, or she attacks your male because he tries to mate when she's not in the mood, or she dismembers her kits because she can't get them out?
Also, what are you going to do with the kits? Leave them in with mom and dad to inbreed? What if mom doesn't produce enough milk for her kits? Are you going to be able to handfeed every two hours around the clock for 6 weeks?
Not to mention, your chins are rescues, correct? Rescues shouldn't be bred due to a lack of genetic history on them. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but don't let them together unless he's fixed. They'll be perfectly happy on their lonesome, with no interaction (not even between cage bars.)
I have 4 females, and 3 males. My boys are housed together, my girls in two seperate cages (3 in 1, 1 by herself). No babies here. And I like it that way. I don't want to put my chins in that situation. If you want them to have buddies, get them same-sex buddies and try that.
Cheknnudol
Chingeneer
Spraying chins with water? Since when has that become acceptable? Have we finally digressed to bathing them as well? Maybe I'm missing something. Obviously a little water isn't guaranteed to give them fungus or anything but seriously - why contribute to a factor in your chin's health (moisture) that can lead to such obnoxious maladies?
Thumbing the nose? I would expect that any kind of physical reprimanding would digress rather than progress bonding between your and your chinnies. They may end up fearing you or worse yet spiting you for it. Why would you want to inflict pain upon them anyways? Love and trust and leather gloves will bypass and possibly even remedy a biting problem.
Mating... gosh where to start. Have you ever seen two dogs meet each other for the first time and immediately start going at one another? I have. I don't know why we would expect chins to be any more conservative about their sexual partners than any other wild animals. Their evolutionary incentive to procreate drives them, and if there is a suitable female a male will undoubtedly have a go at her - may that be within 5 minutes or 5 years.
Introductions: there is a ton of information on this forum about introductions and much of it has been reiterated on this thread for your convenience and benefit. Possibilities of mating aside, there must be a 30 day quarantine of any new chins. After this some people do a smoosh method where they force the two chins into a confined space together, and others do a more gradual format such as the one you described.
I'm not sure how much biting and spraying is supposed to happen during intros, but if there are any actual wounds on either of them i would obviously go to the vet and stop intros immediately. Physical violence between chins is just as deplorable in my opinion as physical violence between you and your chins. Please take my word on this as I had two boys, one of which bit the other and I brushed it off to them having a bad day. Lo and behold a year later the same one bit the other AGAIN and it ended in the victim boy passing away. Don't risk it.
Thumbing the nose? I would expect that any kind of physical reprimanding would digress rather than progress bonding between your and your chinnies. They may end up fearing you or worse yet spiting you for it. Why would you want to inflict pain upon them anyways? Love and trust and leather gloves will bypass and possibly even remedy a biting problem.
Mating... gosh where to start. Have you ever seen two dogs meet each other for the first time and immediately start going at one another? I have. I don't know why we would expect chins to be any more conservative about their sexual partners than any other wild animals. Their evolutionary incentive to procreate drives them, and if there is a suitable female a male will undoubtedly have a go at her - may that be within 5 minutes or 5 years.
Introductions: there is a ton of information on this forum about introductions and much of it has been reiterated on this thread for your convenience and benefit. Possibilities of mating aside, there must be a 30 day quarantine of any new chins. After this some people do a smoosh method where they force the two chins into a confined space together, and others do a more gradual format such as the one you described.
I'm not sure how much biting and spraying is supposed to happen during intros, but if there are any actual wounds on either of them i would obviously go to the vet and stop intros immediately. Physical violence between chins is just as deplorable in my opinion as physical violence between you and your chins. Please take my word on this as I had two boys, one of which bit the other and I brushed it off to them having a bad day. Lo and behold a year later the same one bit the other AGAIN and it ended in the victim boy passing away. Don't risk it.
ZeroG
Chinchilla Whisperer
Wow, I was really surprised at the overwhelming negative response. I am not saying that the chin farm is right or you guys are right I was amazed by the difference in opinion and some of the strong feelings.
How come the majority of the forum thinks that Chin's mating is so bad?
Also, regarding neutering. When I first got Franklin I purchased a book about Chinchilla's that said neutering is really bad and that most male Chinchilla's never fully recover from the procedure and it often results in death. Any thoughts?
Chilly was a rescue, and she is living a lot better of a life with me than she was with her previous owner. As for Franklin his life is good, but he came from a loving home that rescued Chinchilla's.
How come the majority of the forum thinks that Chin's mating is so bad?
Also, regarding neutering. When I first got Franklin I purchased a book about Chinchilla's that said neutering is really bad and that most male Chinchilla's never fully recover from the procedure and it often results in death. Any thoughts?
Chilly was a rescue, and she is living a lot better of a life with me than she was with her previous owner. As for Franklin his life is good, but he came from a loving home that rescued Chinchilla's.
hello
the main reason why we say no breeding is
1. you have no idea of their genetic background. they could be carriers for diseases such a malo and with out knowing the history of their genetics they can pass aweful diseases onto their offspring even though neither parents show any signs of disease
2. alot of things can go wrong during pregnancy and labor and it is not just as simple as sticking 2 chins together,letting them breed, and waiting for babies
for one thing it is hard on the mother and takes aloooot out on her she can get vit and mineral deficiencies from growing the babies
also she can have problems with the babies,one could die in the middle of pregnancy, she could have a breech birth or a still born and have to have emergency surgery
she could get pyometra i think from breeding too
i dont know much about breeding so hopefully some breeders will come on and give you a more detailed reason
how old is this book you have? many books are old and therefore outdated
i know of several neutered chins that are perfectly safe and healthy. as with any surgery there is a risk of complication but we would never reccomend it if it werent safe. pregnancy is much more dangerous than getting a male neutered and then they can be friends and live together
as for the breeder info you have to keep in mind that some breeders(and even vets) know very little about some of the animals just b/c they can put a male and female together and get babies does not mean they are knowlegable about them and care for them properly some are in it just for the money(think puppy mills- they breed dogs but they dont really care about them they just want money from the babies and dont care how many have to die in the process)
the main reason why we say no breeding is
1. you have no idea of their genetic background. they could be carriers for diseases such a malo and with out knowing the history of their genetics they can pass aweful diseases onto their offspring even though neither parents show any signs of disease
2. alot of things can go wrong during pregnancy and labor and it is not just as simple as sticking 2 chins together,letting them breed, and waiting for babies
for one thing it is hard on the mother and takes aloooot out on her she can get vit and mineral deficiencies from growing the babies
also she can have problems with the babies,one could die in the middle of pregnancy, she could have a breech birth or a still born and have to have emergency surgery
she could get pyometra i think from breeding too
i dont know much about breeding so hopefully some breeders will come on and give you a more detailed reason
how old is this book you have? many books are old and therefore outdated
i know of several neutered chins that are perfectly safe and healthy. as with any surgery there is a risk of complication but we would never reccomend it if it werent safe. pregnancy is much more dangerous than getting a male neutered and then they can be friends and live together
as for the breeder info you have to keep in mind that some breeders(and even vets) know very little about some of the animals just b/c they can put a male and female together and get babies does not mean they are knowlegable about them and care for them properly some are in it just for the money(think puppy mills- they breed dogs but they dont really care about them they just want money from the babies and dont care how many have to die in the process)
Cheknnudol
Chingeneer
On the one hand, you seem to be completely opposed to the idea of letting your chinnies live happily and separately. Chins live perfectly fine on their lonesome - more than many other animals do. Even chins that enjoy having cage mates do just fine by themselves. They even can be happier. It seriously depends on the chin. Right now the safest (as far as both mating and violence) living situation is separately.
On the other hand, when you consider letting them live together, you seem to be intentionally ignoring the reasons for opposition this forum has to breeding pet-quality chinchillas. Chinchillas are not people. They don't fall in love and want to have a family that they cherish forever. Additionally, they don't necessarily need or want either of those things. They mate to create offspring and prolong the existence of their species, and this can turn out badly for the mother, the father, and the kits. Reading any of the threads currently in the breeding and babies section will tell you that pregnancies are complicated; many things can go wrong and even if the pregnancy itself goes smoothly, the mother can turn on the kits, the mother can turn on the father, or the mother can die in labor and possibly take the kits with her. With someone as inexperienced as yourself the risk of any, some, or all of these things happening is exceptionally high and exceptionally dangerous since you don't properly know how to handle them at the drop of a hat - because that's how fast you'll need to make decisions if or when your chins are in serious health trouble.
We are here to help you and answer questions, but the problem that we are all having is that you are not listening. You seem to be going to other sources and picking out the information that is what you want to hear rather than the truth. All of these questions that you are asking us and having us clarify have all been answered a million times before; they are listed in the various threads of this forum. Do a search, go through all the threads in the breeding and babies section, go through all the threads regarding intros and surprise kits and rescues and surgeries. I think you will find all of the info you are looking for.
I have to agree at this point with chins1222 has said, as well as reinforce the point that tunes made earlier about all of the books on chins being trash. Surgery is risky for small animals, sure; but the risks of anesthesia and neutering are vastly more manageable than the risks associated with pregnancy - especially pregnancy being handled between two pet chins by someone as inexperienced as yourself. There are many members on this forum who have neutered boys living quite happily.
Breeders don't always know what's best. The whole point of this forum is that by learning as a community, the do's and don't's are established more quickly and shared more efficiently to better the lives of all of our chins. Breeders do, however, have experience; it is this experience that has substantially improved the quality of the chinchilla species and the quality of life that most chinchillas have. They have gone through and learned many of the do's and don't's the hard way and most of the members here do quite a bit of research about their herds so that they may better serve their chins. It is this research and experience that has gotten so many of us out of tight situations where our chins might have died - and for many people on this forum it has helped them out of fatal situations that they caused which put their chins in jeopardy.
Reading through some of the horror stories posted about chins that have gone through bad intros, bad breeding, bad cases of malo and heart murmurs, etc. on this forum will give you a very good idea of why we are so adamant about some of these things that we advocate. A theme you will notice in many of those horror story threads is that the vet more often than not has made some sort of mistake or was not knowledgeable enough about chins to really do anything helpful. Something to keep in mind about Exotic Vets is that they have to study many different kinds of animals instead of just the super common ones. This means that their in-depth knowledge on any one species could be rather insubstantial. Additionally, chinchillas are not quite popular enough as pets yet for most vets to have lengthy experience working on them.
It is your responsibility at that point in time to be able to make the educated and difficult decisions about your pets, should you decide to breed or introduce your chins, that you vet may not necessarily be able to help you with. This may end up meaning euthanasia, hand feeding around the clock for several weeks, surgeries, .. .anything really. If you are really dead set on letting your chins live together and sincerely opposed to neutering, then it at that point becomes your responsibility to be completely educated and aware of everything that could possibly go wrong either with the intro or with any resulting pregnancy.
Sorry to write out such a lengthy post, but it's rather important that you realize it's just not all fun and games when you're putting two chins together - same sex or not.
On the other hand, when you consider letting them live together, you seem to be intentionally ignoring the reasons for opposition this forum has to breeding pet-quality chinchillas. Chinchillas are not people. They don't fall in love and want to have a family that they cherish forever. Additionally, they don't necessarily need or want either of those things. They mate to create offspring and prolong the existence of their species, and this can turn out badly for the mother, the father, and the kits. Reading any of the threads currently in the breeding and babies section will tell you that pregnancies are complicated; many things can go wrong and even if the pregnancy itself goes smoothly, the mother can turn on the kits, the mother can turn on the father, or the mother can die in labor and possibly take the kits with her. With someone as inexperienced as yourself the risk of any, some, or all of these things happening is exceptionally high and exceptionally dangerous since you don't properly know how to handle them at the drop of a hat - because that's how fast you'll need to make decisions if or when your chins are in serious health trouble.
We are here to help you and answer questions, but the problem that we are all having is that you are not listening. You seem to be going to other sources and picking out the information that is what you want to hear rather than the truth. All of these questions that you are asking us and having us clarify have all been answered a million times before; they are listed in the various threads of this forum. Do a search, go through all the threads in the breeding and babies section, go through all the threads regarding intros and surprise kits and rescues and surgeries. I think you will find all of the info you are looking for.
I have to agree at this point with chins1222 has said, as well as reinforce the point that tunes made earlier about all of the books on chins being trash. Surgery is risky for small animals, sure; but the risks of anesthesia and neutering are vastly more manageable than the risks associated with pregnancy - especially pregnancy being handled between two pet chins by someone as inexperienced as yourself. There are many members on this forum who have neutered boys living quite happily.
Breeders don't always know what's best. The whole point of this forum is that by learning as a community, the do's and don't's are established more quickly and shared more efficiently to better the lives of all of our chins. Breeders do, however, have experience; it is this experience that has substantially improved the quality of the chinchilla species and the quality of life that most chinchillas have. They have gone through and learned many of the do's and don't's the hard way and most of the members here do quite a bit of research about their herds so that they may better serve their chins. It is this research and experience that has gotten so many of us out of tight situations where our chins might have died - and for many people on this forum it has helped them out of fatal situations that they caused which put their chins in jeopardy.
Reading through some of the horror stories posted about chins that have gone through bad intros, bad breeding, bad cases of malo and heart murmurs, etc. on this forum will give you a very good idea of why we are so adamant about some of these things that we advocate. A theme you will notice in many of those horror story threads is that the vet more often than not has made some sort of mistake or was not knowledgeable enough about chins to really do anything helpful. Something to keep in mind about Exotic Vets is that they have to study many different kinds of animals instead of just the super common ones. This means that their in-depth knowledge on any one species could be rather insubstantial. Additionally, chinchillas are not quite popular enough as pets yet for most vets to have lengthy experience working on them.
It is your responsibility at that point in time to be able to make the educated and difficult decisions about your pets, should you decide to breed or introduce your chins, that you vet may not necessarily be able to help you with. This may end up meaning euthanasia, hand feeding around the clock for several weeks, surgeries, .. .anything really. If you are really dead set on letting your chins live together and sincerely opposed to neutering, then it at that point becomes your responsibility to be completely educated and aware of everything that could possibly go wrong either with the intro or with any resulting pregnancy.
Sorry to write out such a lengthy post, but it's rather important that you realize it's just not all fun and games when you're putting two chins together - same sex or not.
Ash
Trouble....
It's not bad. There's a lot of breeders on here. We love seeing the pics of cute and cuddly babies, but we also all feel the heartache of the breeders when they share the tragic stories of breeding.
Breeding on any scale should be done responsibly, therefore on any GOOD forum you'd encounter, be it dogs/cats/birds/horses/rabbits/iguanas/etc, every responsible owner would be against irresponsible breeding. Irresponsible breeding is breeding two animals that aren't meant to be bred, not learning about proper protocol and husbandry, etc.
Both of your chinchillas are rescues. That is the first red flag against breeding. You don't know the history of these two. Both could carry malo, or fur chewing, or other diseases. Second, you don't know if they suit each other. Any form of breeding should be done to better the species. Take dog breeding for example. Look at the issues that careless breeding has done to Golden retrievers and other large dogs with hip dysplasia. That's just one of countless examples in one of countless species. Chinchilla breeding should be based on the quality of the animals. Third, the cost, emotionally and financially, if something goes wrong, is great. I've had two breeding experiences, one intentional and one not. The first, my male ended up with a broken leg and I lost him due to an adverse reaction to the anti-biotic he was one(his leg had been totally severed). The second, my female passed a stillborn kit. It killed me to lose my male, and it devestated me to find the dead baby girl. Look through the breeding section at some of the tragic stories there. Look at Riven's website about what can go wrong. Do you have $2000 to spend on an emergency spay for the female only to lose her a week or so later?
Neutering has happened successfully quite a few times on this forum. However, you need a chin-savvy, or at least rabbit-savvy vet to perform the surgery. Someone who's used to performing such surgeries on small animals.
Sorry for the block of text, but well. Just don't breed your rescues. Please.
N
nibblesmama
Guest
Wow....there's some harsh replies here. :wacko:
ZeroG - I'm glad you are here to get the advice and support you need! I'd rather you were here than not!
Don't take the criticism personally, if we were all experts there wouldn't be boards like this...
:blkbounce:
ZeroG - I'm glad you are here to get the advice and support you need! I'd rather you were here than not!
Don't take the criticism personally, if we were all experts there wouldn't be boards like this...
:blkbounce:
H
HaleyGoBoom
Guest
I'd say take the advice given, and not personally. You have two very gorgeous chinnies, and they'll be fine living separately. They don't all get lonely. Kingston had a cagemate and now he's happier than ever living alone! :]
I know the idea of a family and all is nice to us, but when it comes to animals its different. They don't want a husband and kids, it can be and is very stressful to them. I know you love your chinnies, and you wouldn't want to risk their health for the "idea" of family and togetherness that may mean nothing to them really.
I know the idea of a family and all is nice to us, but when it comes to animals its different. They don't want a husband and kids, it can be and is very stressful to them. I know you love your chinnies, and you wouldn't want to risk their health for the "idea" of family and togetherness that may mean nothing to them really.
