Mutations, breeding for personal goals.

[Spoof]

What I would like to do here is help people understand how to set oneself up to achieve a goal over multiple generations.

If you follow my posts you'll see that I talk a lot about different types of colors within a specific mutation like whites, beiges and ebonies. How different white lines throw specific traits and patterns and how some beiges do and do not oxodize or prime. Also, temperament!

Four years ago I started all over again with animals that were three generations removed from my original herd. This is the story of my white line. I'll try to make the comments relevant. I don't take pictures of 1/10th of the chins born here so you are seeing a very small sample of what is thrown. Usually the interesting ones. Feel free to ask questions!

My original Tov tan white line is owned by Alison at Alison's Chinchillas. Ronda Fraizer also had some and she is where I got these guys.

Overall Goals: Blue Tov Tan White with friendly temperament, good size and fur I can't resist touching and handling.

Generation 1. Ebony white x Chocolate.

2008 Ebony White male: Pros:Out of a litter of 6. Extremely prolific. Good milking, temperament, patterning. Cons: Small (520ish g), yellow. Sparse fur.
Knowledge of lines: Yellow came from BTK dam, probably has capability to throw large size.
Production: High, 22 babies with four females until replaced by son in 2010.

2008 Chocolate Female: Pros: Blue, Dense, Strong short fur that does not need grooming*, good size (750g). Cons: Litter history of 1 per litter.
Knowledge of lines: Out of Ronda's top ebony sire. Blue throws true and trumps all other undesirable fur colors. Line has white underfur, chocolates are born white with a black tail and spot out as they age.

How I felt about this pairing: Almost a waste of an amazing female. but necessary to reach my Tov Tan white goals.

Pictures: Chocolate Female (Dam), Sire as a 4 month old, Sire as a 2 year old, Sire with Z11 tan white son who replaced him. (pure white baby).

 

[Dreamlite]

I don't understand why breed for a tov tan white? It will look the same as a pink white. Is it just to have something in 10 years to say you managed it? What would you breed it to? I'm fine with breeding mute to mute for a goal, but all I've ever seen it done was for specific coloring that is unique. If a tov tan white will look like a pink white...?

 

[Spoof]

While the Ebony white male produced many offspring, he only produced one tan white male.

2010 TLW-Z11 Tan White male: Pros: Got the right color, blue, dense, short fur. Doesn't oxodize. Extremely prolific. Cons: Small (600g) Judges hated.
Notes: Still going strong, still not oxidized. Never been a lady he couldn't get pregnant. 22 babies with avg. of 3 ladies, usually non-producers.

2010 RSF Hetero Beige F Pros: Healthy and good temperament. Ok fur. Cons: Red yuck fur tips, noted underfur was blue but she was oxidized when I got her at 6 months old. Temperament iffy. Size ok (700g).

Notes: Shipped down for resale, but I couldn't because she was blind and randomly bit so I kept her as a breeder. Out of Bowen parents.

Boy was this offspring (TLW-A9) a big genetic surprise, proves both sides carry size. I don't have any pictures of him as a baby because he was a meh looking tan thing. By weaning he was 400g. By six months he was 700. Today at 14 months he is 950g. His belly turned pure white about a month ago. He is oxidizing but not near like his mom. I'm not sure on his color. He has jellybean red eyes and has so far only thrown his beige gene.

Photos: Dam, Sire, Sire, A9 @ 4 months, A9 @ 14 months

 

[Spoof]

TLW-A9 Homo tan (white?) Male: Pros: Size, fur density, temperament is outstanding, very prolific despite size. Cons: Not as blue as his brother. Ugly wedge shaped head. 5 babies with 2 ladies. Been in breeding with them since April.

Notes: Only pair with solid ladies until I know for sure he is not white.

Below is one of his babies with a solid female. Second is of dad's belly starting to turn white from last month.

Very curious anomaly this fellow.

 

[Spoof]

TLW-Z11 Tan White Male


RSF-Z083 Tov Ebony F Pros: Tov ebony, great temperament, good size (750g) ok fur. Cons: Wedgey head/body, matt black fur, reddish tint.

Notes: Liked her Temperament and she is a velvet.

TLW-B1 (2/14/2012): Pros: Tov tan white, blue!, hard to judge density/fur quality due to age. Very friendly. Good size for age (730g) Cons: Got his mom's head. Fur is matt and weak, not shiny. May improve with prime.

Notes: Already in breeding with three extra large ladies. One is due any day.
Now I have two males, one with exceptional size/fur/etc, and the other with the color and blue I want. May be potential for crossing that line in a few generations. We'll see.

 

[Spoof]

Difference between the my blue line and a regular homo beige line.

I brought in this unrelated homo beige line because it is hard to find nice ones. Female is 5 months old. This female's one year old sister is in breeding with this male to see if the blue will throw dominant.

6 month old White Violet female for color comparison. I should've taken photos of them together. Might go do that tomorrow.

Six week old tan white baby out of Z11. Will likely get very dark. Will be keeping her.

Pure white line I've mentioned from Ronda. Completely unrelated to anything I have. Every white out of this line is pure white. This one was marked beige and when I got her at six months was already mostly white. One of my favorite chins, sweet as can be and amazing-dig-your-fingers-into-it super dense fur. She has the "crisco" feeling that the ranchers talk about.

 

[Spoof]

Other random babies from this line, obviously they've had a few each!

95% of my babies are sold between 10 weeks and 4 months. I've definitely sold some I wish I had kept but I am getting pretty good at spotting ones I want to keep at a young age.

 

[Spoof]

I don't understand why breed for a tov tan white? It will look the same as a pink white.

I have never had a two tan whites look the same and I've had a lot of them born. That is part of the fun.

Is it just to have something in 10 years to say you managed it?

This was done in 4 years. I took a 1.5 year break when I moved to Louisiana. Still visited Ronda and had her pair a few for me though!

What would you breed it to?

Depends on what I'm looking for and how each baby turns out. Z11 will continue to be my non-breeder starting male until B1 proves himself. We'll see how A9 throws his size, so far his babies are following in his footsteps. B1, well, who knows what I will get with him. Hopefully not that head.

I'm fine with breeding mute to mute for a goal, but all I've ever seen it done was for specific coloring that is unique. If a tov tan white will look like a pink white...?

I posted my goals at the beginning. Temperament, beauty, and some other personal preferences. So far the temperament is great. These guys beg to come out, want to know what I am doing, and are super friendly from day one with minimal handling. Most importantly, I love going to to the barn to see what they are up to. I have a good number of chins that could care less what I am doing and some are very unfriendly. I will use those for their genetics, sell them on and keep the second/third generation.

Edited to say that all of the pictures taken on the Amazon.com box were taken tonight. That tan white is a 2.5 year old male that has not oxidized.

 

[Dreamlite]

My point being, with most of these colors you can't tell if they are whites or tov. How can you breed or pair up a color that you aren't even sure of? Some are obvious and others you can't tell.

 

[Spoof]

A person's reason for why they breed is unique and personal. It's like me trying to explain why I like the color green. I'll do the best I can: It is what makes me excited to go out to the barn every morning and tough it out through sickness, death, financial loss and personal pain. I don't know how long you have been breeding but most average 3-5 years and drop out. To stick with chinchillas you really have to love them.

My point being, with most of these colors you can't tell if they are whites or tov. How can you breed or pair up a color that you aren't even sure of? Some are obvious and others you can't tell.

Out of the last 97 kits the only one I have not been able to genetically determine was A9. And why? He makes me curious! What is he going to throw, how big is it going to get, is it going to be friendly? Yes to all three. He isn't even full grown yet.

95% of the babies went to pet homes so it really doesn't matter. I almost never advertise because I don't need to. When I do it is because I want to share the lineage and keep the lines going. The ones that went to breeding homes I had proven and came with a long genetics lecture and 14+ annotated generations in some cases.

I decided to go out and take more pictures because they're already groomed.

First picture is Tov Tan White and White Violet. You can see why they sometimes get placed in violet classes. Second, Tov Tan White, his Homo Beige female, and White Violet. Third, I threw a young sapphire in there for amusement. Fourth is A9's 10 week old dark tan kit that is almost 400g. This is the same kit that was pale whitish with a dark black tail pictured above at two days old.

 

[jags]

Not seeing how they would classify them in the violet class. PM me with show where this happened if you would.

 

[arf2184]

Z11 reminds me so much of Pluto's kits.

I love this line and wish I had kept more of them. The blue, short, dense fur goes nicely with my standard line (out of Shoots male). The standards are very nice animals but their longer dense fur doesn't shed out as nicely and some of them require grooming to prevent mattes. The white line does not require grooming (thank you Tara!). So far mixing the two has yielded good results.

The TOV Tan White's that I've had from Pluto's line do not look like Pink Whites and they tend to change color throughout their lives. I love all the possibilities you get with the kits from this line. That makes it all the more fun.

My whites tend to have a lot of strong dark guard hair. Personally I like the look. The judges have had mixed feelings about it. Some like it, some don't care for it. I don't really take it into consideration when choosing mates for them.

Here are some more pics for your viewing pleasure.

2006 TOV Tan White male out of Pluto (TOV Tan White in my avatar) and a Standard female, kicking myself for not keeping him. Narrow in the shoulders, 650g range, nice short dense blue-ish fur, changed colors...he was born beige with white tip on his tail, was mostly white by 6 mos (with just beige mask and one spot), then got dark again as seen here:

2007 TOV Tan White male - Jupiter - out of Pluto and Standard - (Was a good breeder, but now he's afraid of girls...we're working on it); nice fur and an interesting personality (likes to dismantle his cage and play with the water bottle); a tad narrow in shoulders

2011 TOV Eb? White male out of Pluto and Standard - high hopes for this boy, currently in breeding with a standard, was shown and took Section Champ, very nice friendly personality

2009 Brown Velvet female out of Jupiter and Standard - GORGEOUS girl! Reserve color phase champ and great personality too; bigger than her dad with tighter fur, veiling was a bit weak in the neck, nice white belly (still eb in the genetic background though)

2011 White female (eb? TOV?) out of Jupiter and standard - also took Section Champ - She's bigger and blockier than her daddy, would like to have a bit stronger fur on her, but she's got a lot of potential (in her new home)

 

[Vyxxin]

Some beautiful cross chins. I don't condemn those with experience breeding such crosses. You all have goals that run further than "I want babies". You all have went to a show or two and know what you're looking at and how to get (or not get) it. Heck, I've always liked whites. They're my absolute favorite and make up a large portion of my herd. This is why, in the past year or so, I've incorporated some "white crosses" into my herds. Granted, all of my mutes are paired to standards with the exception of my ebony lines...BUT I did incorporate some pre-crossed animals. An eb white, a TOV white...and working with their individual traits to get the quality I want.

And you're right, most breeders come on the scene...stay for 3-5yrs and disappear as quickly as they'd arrived. What do they accomplish in that time? With the gestation length of chinchillas it's hard to accomplish anything in less than 3yrs. Last month marked my 10th year meddling with these critters. I started off with shoddy pet animals, and sold them within half a year in favor of show chins. BUT I did breed the "funny bunnies" and they were the coolest looking things...and I was condemned for it. Granted, they WERE pedigreed and of good health...but aside from that they were just a warm body. They WERE really poor show quality animals. Not a good trait in the bath, yellow whites, red beiges, mottled ebonies and pinched necks everywhere. Went to my first show, started over. Since then I've worked within my herd a LONG time. Mostly with simple things like bv's, grays and whites. I occasionally tampered with beiges on and off but EVERYTHING was paired back with a gray. Didn't want to risk adding in something that I couldn't account for, as I too sell young most of the time.

After a LONG time what I found, was something was just not as fun as it once was...I figured out what it was I truly enjoyed the funny bunnies. NOW, with a MUCH better understanding of quality and how to get it, I've started adding a few here and there.

I have ebonies in my herd that I was once terrified of adding because I didn't want to have it unaccounted for, popping up later to cause havoc. Then I realized something...I have control. They're not all just breeding away like mad with whoever, whenever they want So my ebonies are very restricted group...but this past year I had my most unique looking kit ever born and I can't say I wasn't thrilled again.

I feel like this, when you first start out...buy quality and work basic, get to know the ropes. After a few years, prove yourself. Have long term goals and make sure they're met. I think health and temperament should be the foremost consideration for all herds but that's JMHO. AFTER that phase...yano, when you've been in for a good long while...seen many a breeder come and go...bring in the fun for yourself. For some that may be to set new, higher goals (two GSC chins this year instead of one)...or to work with a new color (something like ebony could be new if you've never worked with it)...or maybe it's to create quality in an unorthodox color (such as a TOV tan white). But again, maybe I'm just stuck up after so many years of seeing "fly by night breeders" in and out of the industry...that I really do feel experience before fun and that takes time.

 

[Encantadora]

I enjoyed your tutorial. Interesting journey.

 

[bondiferous]

Spoof, this thread killlllleeedddd me! KILLED!!!!! I love TOV tan whites, they are my absolute favorites. Thank you for posting so many wonderful photos and your thought process behind these amazing chinchillas. You and I share reasoning for loving this unique mutation.

Would you mind lending me some input? I have a light tan male with bright white underfur, possible tov. Do you know what causes a tan to have white underfur and others to not?

 

[Spoof]

Thank you!

I have a light tan male with bright white underfur, possible tov. Do you know what causes a tan to have white underfur and others to not?

Ah, my favorite topic!

So. There are many types of a mutation within each mutation. For example, some ebonies are shiny, some are mat, one line fades, some lines darken in spots, some are born dark and lighten.... you get the idea.

With beiges there are also many mutations with in the beige classification. The two you are going to "not see" the most are dark underfur vs. light underfur. These animals look identical on the outside but blow into the fur and you'll be surprised. One will have pure white underfur, and the other deep dark brown. From what I have seen the whiter the underfur the more evenly colored and "smooth" the beige is. Beiges that are ticked in color often have the dark underfur. You'll know one if you see it to me they always look like they need a bath.

Of course when you cross these into ebony and you end up with tans of similar attributes. What I have found is that the tans with the dark underfur are born dark and lighten with age. The tans with the light underfur are born lighter, almost white in some cases and darken with age. Of course there are mixes of the two lines and they'll have a tinted underfur but they usually turn out awkward looking and in pursuit of one attribute or another the breeder heads down the dark or light fur road.

The first picture is fur plucked out of the line I work with. Beiges, tans, v/c's and a GSC hetero beige from Furball Ranch. The second picture is the first dark furred light Hetero beige I saw and plucked. At the time I had never seen this type before. Now I know what to look for and see them regularly at shows where I can't pluck samples. Third picture is fur from the Chocolate female up on top. If you were to blow into her fur it would appear very light, almost white even though it looks dark on paper. The fourth picture is the two different types of tans as babies, the white one is from A9 and the dark one from the tan female I just sold. She was the last of my dark underfurred line. The white baby will end up significantly darker than the dark baby, who will either stay that color or fade a little bit.

Last picture is just another cute baby. )

Edited to include a link where I put up more pictures of a Brown Velvet that had white underfur.l

 

[bondiferous]

Thanks Spoof, this is incredibly interesting.

Is dark or light underfur dominant, co-dominant or recessive? Does dark underfur overpower light underfur when bred together? Im so intrigued! Im assuming all chinchillas have ticking in their fur? Do even violets have bands?

 

[addictedtochins]

Love this thread!

 

[Spoof]

Is dark or light underfur dominant, co-dominant or recessive?

It is not recessive, it appears to act like ebony, increasing or decreasing with each generation.

Does dark underfur overpower light underfur when bred together?

Not really, you'll get a range of babies with varying shades of underfur. The biggest problem is it messes with other fur qualities.

Im assuming all chinchillas have ticking in their fur?

All chinchillas have the agouti banding even if it is masked or modified by a color or lack of color. The ticking in the beige and sapphires is from fur laying down and showing the white banding against a dark underfur. If you think about it, that is a high contrast dark/white/dark vs. pale/white/dark. Animal #2 will always appear smoother even when it is missing chunks of fur because they are lacking that contrast.

Do even violets have bands?

Yes. Violet fur is identical to standard fur except that they have altered pigmentation. I'll post some pictures of violet fur later. )

Back to the dark vs. light underfur: What I have seen is that breeders pursue one or the other chasing after other qualities that seem closely tied in to those traits. White underfurred animals tend to have short, dense fur that does not need groomed and are lighter in veiling. When shown they are always called "bright" and eye appealing (unless you have a dark x light cross, they are usually ruddy). They often lack the depth of veiling and the sharp contrast that some judges look for due to a shorter dark tip and white underfur. Standards out of these lines do not show well becuase they have this uniform bright look with very little apparant "veiling". In truth it is there, but the tips are not long enough to make it appear "black black". Dark underfurred animals tend to have longer fur and much darker veiling/fur tips. Overall when you look at a dark furred animal you see greater volume due to fur length and much darker veiling due to a longer dark tip on the fur. They often struggle with "brightness" at a show because if that white bar is not pure white against the dark underfur the judges notice.

You can have successful standard crosses with the two types if you are willing to put 7-10 generations into it.

 

[bondiferous]

Thanks so much for answering all of my questions! Im trying to compare our two standards - one has light underfur and the other has almost black underfur. The two really conform to your posts! I never thought about looking at our standards fur before.

This answer will vary for lines and mutations but do you prefer light or dark underfur? Im not a breeder and don't plan on breeding but this is all so much fun to learn about. Plus then I have excuses to spend a long time in the chin room.