I need support from fellow malo-chin owners

[<3chinbaby]

I got him when he was a baby. He had overgrown molars at 1 years old. His x-rays (taken last week had no overgrown roots or infection). He is now 2 years old. Spurs and ulcers in his mouth causing him to drool. There has been a constant need to trim him every 3 months.

I've been drained physically, emotionally and financially. Trims at $500 every 3 months has been difficult. He also tends to get URI after trims as well. Buying bags and bags of CC and different hays to get him to eat. But I had hoped that if I fed him exclusively hay and pull out pellets, he would get better. At best, he went for 4 months until he needed a trim.

This last trim, he didn't get better. He gets trimmed by a highly qualified rodent dentist (Dr. Kanfer in pasadena) but I'm just not sure what happened this time. My bf wants to PS him. I just allow that. He plays, runs on his favorite chinnie wheel, begs for treats and comes to my hand when I let him out. Has any malo chin (w/o root elongation) made it till old age? Am I prolonging a losing battle?

 

[Riven]

Do you have pics of the xrays? Sometimes they just aren't read right, sometimes it's not there. If you can post pics of the xrays there are several people on the site who can take a second/third/fourth look at them. It's like a free second opinion.

Now to the hard part. There comes a time when it's not financially possible to continue palliative care for a pet. In a situation like this rehoming would leave you wondering if the new owners are taking care of him properly, and finding someone who will and knows what they're doing is tough. There is his quality of life, URI every 3 months... being hand feed... doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me, plus you run the risk of affecting other organs with repeated sedation. Not to mention the "wear" on you, which I know that you understand. There is no easy answer, it's a situation where you have to lay out all of the pro's and con's... I'm sorry.

 

[tunes]

I know of a very well respected, well known lady that has jumped through hoops backwards and forwards with malo chins, trying pretty much every treatment that there is for malo. She will be the first to tell you that it's just not worth it. She has the money, it wasn't an issue for her, but the toll it took on her beloved pets? No amount of money or feeling like she was doing everything she possibly could for them could justify that. I'm sure she'll end up posting here herself, and I mean she tried everything possible.

I also want to say, no matter how much we want to do well by our pets, in this economy $500.00 every 3 months is astronomical for most people. In the end, they are pets. If this is affecting your financial situation adversely, this also has to be taken into consideration.

Malo is incurable. You can hold back the tide by doing the trimmings, but speaking quite honestly, if you have to do it every 3 months, you are doing your pet no favors. That is an awful lot of stress on a chin. At some point, you have to decide on quality of life over quantity. It sounds as though you have reached the point where it's becoming more of an issue of quantity.

I'm very sorry this is happening. It's one of the hardest things to deal with.

 

[Brittany]

I'm a malo mom. I let my baby go a few months after she was diagnosed. Her quality of life was deteriorating quickly. I didn't want her to get to the point that she was in constant pain, just because I wanted a few more months with her. There is no cure for malo, the kindest thing we can do is say goodbye before it gets too painful. I'm so sorry you're going through this :-(

 

[<3chinbaby]

I will post x-rays as soon as Dr. Greek sends them to me.

Tunes, when you said a fellow CnH member tried everything...

I know this sounds crazy, but has anyone tried the dried veggies diet for their chins? I'm not trying to cause a debate.

But I'm desperate to help him. I do feel helpless. :cry3:
As for quality of his life, I will put him down if his quality of life is horrible.
But he usually recovers almost immediately (stops drooling right after surgery!) and resumes eating on his own 3-5 days post surgery. Right after surgery, he even eats his hay like a champ! he has never been much of a hay eater which I think doesn't allow him to wear his teeth enough.

 

[greychins]

I've never heard of a dried veggies diet for malo chins. Though, since chins aren't supposed to have veggies, dried or not... I wouldn't think it would do any good for the malo chin. What is the reasoning behind it - that dried veggies are harder to eat than pellets? I'm simply asking, I've just never heard of it. Though if that's the thinking, I know some people have had some luck trying feeding extruded pellets, like Blue Seal rabbit food, because those are harder to chew/eat than regular chinchilla pellets. Haven't tried it myself, just something I've heard talked about.

The member Tunes is talking about really has tried everything. If there was some miracle cure out there, I honestly believe she would have found it for the chin community. But... no such thing. Unfortunately, malo isn't a problem that can be cured, it's more of a delay of the inevitable. It's like... my doctor recently was talking to me about how my asthma meds don't fix the problem, and neither do my blood pressure meds... rather, they both simply slow down the rate at which my lungs and heart will get worse over time. By taking the meds, and slowing down the rate, I'll live longer... but it's still no cure. The same with malo. The teeth filings can be done and done again and done again... but at the end of the day, it's prolonging the inevitable. We have a malo chin here now, and we've had others in the past - so I do understand what you're going through. At some point, you have to decide when enough is enough. Money comes in as a factor, so does your own well-being. It's tough dealing with a malo chin and handfeeding and constantly going to the vet and all. And $500 every three months is a lot of money, can't deny that. At some time, it will come to the point where it'll be best for him, and for you, to have him put down. Me personally, I would rather make that decision a second too soon, rather than a minute too late.

 

[feistychins]

Yes the theory behind the dried veggies is that the chin really needs to chew them, the same as the extruded pellets. This always baffles me because I have some malo chins that can't even eat regular chin pellet, don't know how they are going to chew something even harder. There has been no case of a chin being cured of malo that I know of. These special diets only work if a chin stays on it forever. Any deviation of the extruded diet and the chin relaspes. That is not a cure to me.

Malo is one of the most heartbreaking and difficult things a chin and chin parent can go through. I have had many chins with malo here at the rescue. Some do very well for years and an occasional trim, others it hits them hard and fast and they have to go more often. I have never had a chin win the battle. Eventually, it takes a toll and they begin to loose weight despite hand feedings and it gets to be too much for them.

I am so sorry for what you are going through. It does sound like your little guy is willing to fight and keep going at this time though. For me that always makes a big difference. I don't pay the rates that you do in your area though. I think it is a very personal decision as to how far you go.

 

[Claire D]

I am very sorry you are going through this. Sometimes keeping chins is heartbreaking & having a young chinchilla with dental issues is definitely one of those times.

Personally, I believe that when a chin has stopped enjoying life, it is time to stop - for their sake. Chinchillas hide pain & illness well (to their detriment) & when they have dental issues they are slowly dying through malnutrition, pain & (often) hidden/silent infection. By that I mean the kind of infection which does not show signs & symptoms but which is causing issues to organs in the body - some chins become septic (infection in the bloodstream). Sneezing, gunky eyes etc can accompany tooth problems & they are the outward signs of inner problems & underlying infection (sinus).

There are people & sites on the internet which are claiming to cure malocclusion with various forms of diet - dried veggies is a recommendation from some in the UK or extruded pellets - but the problem with both of those (aside from the raging debates about the suitability of veggies) is that there is absolutely no proof offered. When asked for xrays or other clinical proofs, none are ever given & the chins do all die of malocclusion anyway.
Please don't let anyone tell you that dental issues can be reversed using diet - until there is definitive, clinical proof then that's cobblers. Managed for a period of time; yes but cured? No, sadly not.

Over the years I have had many chins here with dental issues. I do use an extruded pellet for chins with difficulties eating but not because it is a cure-all or because it is harder than normal pellets. I use it primarily because the chins like the taste (Beaphar Care +) & also they seem to be able to eat the extruded pellets more easily than normal pellets. I also sue various forms of forage so that the chins have to use their grinding surfaces (the same principles as with dried veggies). Anything which gets a dental chin crunching/chewing again rather than eating soft food is good.

In young chins, barring some dental trauma as a kit, "malocclusion" is almost always genetic. Diet can do very little to effect the outcome & all you can do (as you have been doing) is manage the problem/symptoms. When the dentals get closer together, the chin fails to bounce back quickly following surgery, is struggling to eat, & is not behaving like a chinchilla, then I am afraid it is time to consider the future.

Personally I have the motto of 'rather a minute too soon than a second too late' - unfortunately with young chins which have malocclusion, that 'minute' comes far too soon. To be able to end suffering & provide a peaceful, dignified ending is (I truly believe) the last, most loving, compassionate act that anyone can do for their beloved pet &, painful though it is, it is also a privilege.

Once again, I am truly sorry you are having to face this problem with your chin. I wish you both all the very best.

 

[ticklechin]

I have tried just about every treatment out there to "cure" malocclusion, from horribly invasive selective teeth removal, to a chin having to wear a sling around its head to hold its mouth shut 8 hours a day for months and sit under a UV light, from gingival contouring where the gum is cut away to remove perio pockets, to full blown gum flap surgery where necrotic bone is removed around the teeth, from every diet out there, supplementation of CAH, from accupuncture to physiotherapy of the jaw muscle, the MRIs and CT scans that look you in the face and tell you your name should be on the poster that says FAIL. If I have not tried it I know about it and rejected it. For almost 10 years I have had at least 1 malo chin at any time, sometimes 2 or 3, paid for 100s of filings and 1000s and 1000s of dollars in expensive vet care, meds and critical care bills could be over 100.00 a month, 1000s and 1000s of hand feeding sessions, dealt with just about every crappy thing a malo chin can toss at you from the crappy stasis and bloat to URIs, from dental abscesses to periodontal disease, eye infections, skin infections from drool, penis infections from the chin not cleaning. I think I am qualified to say that there is no cure and no amount of time, effort of money will make the chin whole again. I look back and I am ashamed of myself for what I put my malo babies through for my own selfish motives. I have no malo chins now but if I did there would be no heroics, I would just love the chin as long as it was chin like and when the decline happened-and it will, I now have no hesitation but to do the kind thing and PTS like my last 3 malo chins.

 

[mishellyshel]

$500 for a trim is excessive and every 3 months is way too often. my trims were way less than that. i did put my chin on the beaphar plus pellets and that definitely helped him eat and gain weight and i added an herbal mix to his diet as well as he in on daily meds but i havent had him trimmed in quite some time and he has not exhibited any typical signs in a while.
personally if it was me, as a last resort, i would seek another vet. i just can imagine why it costs so much for just a trim.
but as Dawn said......as soon as he is not acting like a chin it is time to let go.

 

[ticklechin]

3 months for a true malo chin to need to be filed would be a dream come true for most of us, 4-7 weeks is more like it when you are dealing with it. There is a difference betweem malo chins and chins who get points, chins who get points need to be filed on a sporatic basis, they have no set schedule, eat on their own for the most part and can go every 6 month, to a couple of years between filings-I had one who was 17 before he passed away and was filed since he was 4. Malo chins you can set your calender to and might as well make the next appointment when you leave the vets door, they are that predictable within a couple of weeks-in fact its better to catch them too early than too late, less soft tissue damage and less trauma.

 

[<3chinbaby]

ticklechin, my chin doesn't evenly grind all surface of his teeth, so every 3 months, he gets spurs, points which result ulcers. I thought uneven wearing of the teeth is considered malo??

I do see the extent that some of the members here have went for their malo chins. I hadn't even realized there has been so many theories of how to cure a malo chin. But at this point, I'd be happy to even keep his problem at bay. I'm not looking for a cure per se, but I want to prolong his time between trims to at least 6 months and want him to live a long happy life.

He doesn't like hay, so I was hoping dried veggies or the harder pellets would help to grind his teeth down.

 

[feistychins]

Any time the teeth do not come together normally, it is considered malocclusion. Points occur when the teeth are misaligned. A harder pellet may help your chin, especially if he does not like hay. Extra chew toys help too.

 

[ticklechin]

ticklechin, my chin doesn't evenly grind all surface of his teeth, so every 3 months, he gets spurs, points which result ulcers. I thought uneven wearing of the teeth is considered malo??

I do see the extent that some of the members here have went for their malo chins. I hadn't even realized there has been so many theories of how to cure a malo chin. But at this point, I'd be happy to even keep his problem at bay. I'm not looking for a cure per se, but I want to prolong his time between trims to at least 6 months and want him to live a long happy life.

He doesn't like hay, so I was hoping dried veggies or the harder pellets would help to grind his teeth down.

When the chin does not grind the all surfaces of the teeth they are lazy chewers, extreme lazy chewers can get wave mouth, needing more trimmings frequently, if the teeth are straight and that is a big if and in this chins case I cannot say for sure if this is a lazy chewer situation, extreme lazy chewer, or malo. Its techincally malo true but lazy chewers can have a longer life without too much trouble-my lazy chewer was 17 when he passed, he was a extreme case and not the norm. Malo chins who require agressive treatment with poor outcomes have teeth that grow inward and outward and can tilt front or back, unable to chew really at all even if they wanted to since the teeth do not meet and cause pain when chewed on.

I do not want to get any hopes up due to my statement, I have not seen this chins x-rays nor have seen inside this chins mouth only going by what the OP states that the chin does not chew all its teeth surfaces which in turn causes the points. You can try adding loose alfalfa to the diet and see if the chin wants that, try other types of hay, try some extruded pellets like beaphar + and see if you can get the chin chewing more-different types of hay make chins chew it different-try alfalfa, 1st cut timothy and oat hay for different textures.


Again, this is not a cure, and I am not saying your chin is going to be fine, I am just sharing my experience with my lazy chewer who had perfect straight teeth and just needed the edges trimmed when needed, he did not have true malo-crooked teeth. Extreme lazy chewers are tough nuts to crack and can result in malo over time along with elongation due to their chewing habits so even if this is the case, this chin may still have a poor outcome and the OP needs to be the one to know when to say when, do not go for heroics, love the chin while you can and when its time do the right thing and say goodbye sweet chin.

3 months long term is not great, the stress on the body will wear the chin down, and it will wear you down, so if you try the items above and get no improvement at all in a short time, you will never get any improvement so it will be OK to make decisions knowing you at least tried.

 

[Tanya]

He doesn't like hay, so I was hoping dried veggies or the harder pellets would help to grind his teeth down.

Pellets are not likely to help wear the teeth down properly. I think pelleted diets actually lead to the development of dental problems. In wild chins, dental disease appears to be rare. Wild chins slice through coarse vegetation with front teeth, and break up grass by grinding action with their back teeth. Pellets are just crushed between teeth – crashing action does not wear down molars properly and fast enough. "Skulls from wild-caught chinchillas showed minimal evidence of dental disease and the teeth were all short, cheek-tooth lengths averaging 5.9 mm. Cheek-tooth lengths in zoo specimens (average 6.6 mm), clinically normal (average 7.4 mm) and captive-bred animals with dental disease (average 10 mm) were significantly elongated by comparison (P<0.0001). Captive-bred specimens showed a wide range of tooth-related lesions." (Crossley DA, Miguélez MM)

Also, synthetic nutrients in pellets allow for maximal mineralization of the teeth; as a result, it becomes hard to wear the teeth down. Some chins are more affected by it than others.

In some cases, it is possible to improve the condition. I have a few customers who were dealing with frequent filings, drooling, but today their chins are doing well (no drooling, no filings necessary so far or less frequent filings), and I receive emails that make me so happy! I recommended to drastically reduce the amount of pellets chins get, offer various types of hay, including some alfalfa hay (chins who could not eat hay were given ground hay with herbs, including rose hips, and Essential for Life) and a herbal broad spectrum supplement daily. It is necessary to give supplement that contains herbs, grains, and a tiny amount of seeds when you offer only a small amount of pellets + hay. Otherwise, chins may not get all nutrients they need and they will lose weight. I was helping customers who could not afford to use EFL exclusively to make their own mix.

3chinbaby, many chins prefer pellets; however, when you limit the amount of pellets they get, they eat hay. To encourage your chin to eat more hay, offer various types/brands of hay, including alfalfa hay (about 40%).

 

[ticklechin]

The above post is talking about chins who are lazy chewers, not chins who have true malocclusion, there is no improving malocclusion with any diet or supplementation, there are those on the internet that spout out all kinds of claimes to pump up their self importance, but when called out to prove it with documented 3rd party evidence they slink off not to be heard from until they think people forgot they were called out.

No matter where you hear it, there is no cure for malo, there is no diet, supplement, procedure, pill, therapy period, end of subject, all done all through. Those that spout out this giberish should be ashamed of themselves, getting the hopes up of malo parents.

 

[WhiteTree]

I have a malo chin too. Don't waste your time and money on these miracle cure diets. I've tried several and they haven't done a thing for my boy in the last four months. Now I'm taking a coffee grinder and grinding up his pellets and hay and mixing it with critical care and some vegetable baby food (only peas and greenbean baby food this is what my vet told me to use). I also grind up a nine grain supplement and rosehips and put that in a tiny dish on the side for him as a treat. It's all stuff I have on hand for the other three chinchillas and things he would be eating if he could eat on his own, except the CC. I just take his regular diet and grind it to a powder, mix with water so it's kinda chunky and he eats it up. I'm weighing him tonight but he already looks like he's put some weight on in less than a week. Good luck, just be ready to pull the plug when he's not being a chin anymore. If he stops running or begging for treats it's time.

 

[mishellyshel]

I have a malo chin too. Don't waste your time and money on these miracle cure diets. I've tried several and they haven't done a thing for my boy in the last four months. Now I'm taking a coffee grinder and grinding up his pellets and hay and mixing it with critical care and some vegetable baby food (only peas and greenbean baby food this is what my vet told me to use). I also grind up a nine grain supplement and rosehips and put that in a tiny dish on the side for him as a treat. It's all stuff I have on hand for the other three chinchillas and things he would be eating if he could eat on his own, except the CC. I just take his regular diet and grind it to a powder, mix with water so it's kinda chunky and he eats it up. I'm weighing him tonight but he already looks like he's put some weight on in less than a week. Good luck, just be ready to pull the plug when he's not being a chin anymore. If he stops running or begging for treats it's time.

im sorry, but this is not very good advice. you should not give chins peas or green beans. the only acceptable baby food would be squash or even better plain canned pumpkin. and even at that only minimal amounts should be used. it can cause gas and if given too much too often it cause bloat. and the constant feeding of a mush pellet mix does nothing to encourage the chin to chew.......it will maintain their weight because you are basically feeding them their body weight every day.

i had a chin i handfed for almost a year that was diagnosed with malo. he has a misaligned jaw, poor tooth wear, and according to members here after looking at his xrays had the beginning of root growth. i eventually took him off the handfeed and give him bunches of alfalfa both the rough stems and the soft. i also occassionally offer him timothy and/or other cuts but he really only eats the alfalfa. i have taken Tanya's advice and offered him an herbal mix (one that i prepare myself) and i give him a daily dose of liquid lifeline(i grind regular lifeline and mix with water) and he also gets a dose of tramadol & cimetidine (acid reflux) meds. i decresased the amount drastically from the original dose. he also gets feed Beaphar plus pellets and a mix of either Oxbow or Mazuri or PANR depending on the day. i offer softer and hard woods to encourage chewing and he actually has several bowls in his cage placed in different spots to encourge foraging (sp??).

i agree with weighing your chin frequently to monitor weight loss/gain. i also think you need to try everything possible and get xrays to see how far if at all the roots are growing. you may have a true lazy chewer or a chin with misalgined or poor wearing teeth and in that case you can try a lot of different methods to encourage chewing.

Malo is a term that includes varying levels of damage. some can be helped or slowed down and others are the worst case scenario.

 

[DezzyChin]

Hi, my chinchilla Dezzy also has malo. It sounds like your chin's case may be more severe, but I'll share my experience.

We're not sure how old Dezzy is, but I think she's seven or eight, and I've had her for four and a half to five years. The entire time I've owned her, her right eye would be periodically watery, and then it would go away and then come back, and the vet thought it may be allergies.

In the fall of 2010, she became very sick--looking back, I can see it was more gradual than it appeared to me at the time, but she lost a signficant amount of weight, started drooling, got a watery eye, and stopped eating. I took her to the vet and started doing some reading on this website about what I could do for her, and most importantly, how to get food in her when she didn't seem to be able to chew pellets or hay. I got some good ideas about grinding hay and mixing it with water, but Dezzy wouldn't eat that, either; then I found some of Tanya's postings on the subject and checked out her website. I contacted her through her website to get advice and bought her herbal supplement and her handheld supplement (which Dezzy loves).

Meanwhile, the vet found a tooth spur growing through the roof of Dezzy's mouth. He was able to remove it; he also found some misalignments in her teeth and uneven growth, so he filed her teeth down, but he didn't take x-rays at that time.

Dezzy bounced back very quickly and she actually loved the handheld food--thankfully, she eats it off a tiny spoon quite happily so I don't have to use a syringe (she HATED that). Unfortunately, not long after, she started drooling and dropping weight again.

Between between Sept. 2010 and Jan. 2011, she had three teeth filings. He did x-ray her teeth at the second filing and told me that we had "quite a mess" in there. He said that Dezzy has an orbital-shaped growth of roots on the upper right side (which is why her right eye was watery off and on for about four years), and the roots on the lower right side are close to growing through the mandible.

The vet told me I needed to get her to eat more hay and a variety of hay; the problem of course was that Dezzy had never really cared much for hay, preferring pellets.

The vet told me I had to drastically cut back on her pellets to encourage the eating of hay; since I knew it may be difficult for her to eat enough hay to maintain weight and get proper nutrition, I supplemented with handheld feedings.

I took the vet and Tanya's advice and offered Dezzy a wide variety of hay--different cuts, varieties, and brands. I discovered a few she seemed to like, but after a few purchases of one brand, she would stop eating it because she got bored with it, so then I would switch to another brand. I rotate between a few different hays to keep her interested.

I also cut her pellets to 1/2 T./day. I give them to her at night; at first she clamored for them and ate them all really quickly. These days, she doesn't even usually eat all of them; instead she wants the herbal supplement.

I offer her hay in a couple different places in her cage, and I give her a handful of "fresh" hay in the morning, another "fresh" handful in the evening, a "fresh" handful at playtime, and a "fresh" couple handfuls at night. I say "fresh" because I discovered that if the hay has been in there for more than 8 hours or so, she won't touch it, she wants it "fresh" from the box, so I oblige. I also still handfeed her (a mix of handheld formula and ground hay); I'm down to 3x/day (it's a much smaller quantity of food than it used to be) and I'm working on reducing the amount I feed her at each feeding so I can hopefully wean her off.

Her last filing was just over a year ago and she's made a great deal of progress. Her last instance of watery eye was this summer; she had gotten down to around 820 g when she was really sick initially, and she is now maintaining her weight between 940 and 948 g (I weigh her every day and write it on the calendar).

She used to hardly look at hay, now she seems to actually enjoy it and is excited when I put fresh hay in her cage. She rarely eats all of her 1/2 T. pellets at night. She is very active and spunky. I do have lots of wood in her cage; she still seems to prefer a lot of the softer woods, but she does enjoy chewing wood.

I do not think she has been cured of her malo, but I think the diet modifications I've made (and she's adapted to) have greatly improved the situation and has definitely prolonged her life; it was a long process to change her diet, and it was frustrating at times.

A year ago, I was strongly considering putting her to sleep, and I fully expected her to not make it to summer, but she started improving and continued to improve and right now she's doing great. I know that eventually I will probably have to put her to sleep because of her teeth problems, but for now, she's doing very well and it seems that the progress of the malo has been slowed. I have not had an x-ray done since the first one, so I don't know what her teeth look like now.

I'm also really sorry that your teeth filings are so expensive; mine were not nearly as expensive, but I live in a much less expensive area of the country. Reading about your chin, your chin's situation may be worse than mine since your chin is so much younger; maybe Dezzy was just a lazy chewer (I didn't know about that term before reading this thread), I don't know. All I know is that I made some drastic changes to her diet and she's doing much better.

I hope my experience with Dezzy helps you in some way. I'm sorry it's such a long post, but I'm so proud of the changes Dezzy has made; I did not think she was capable of making the changes, and I'm so thankful for the time I've gotten to spend with her over the past year.

Nicole
PS I attached a picture of one of Dezzy's handheld feeding sessions from last February.

 

[feistychins]

I'd like to know what qualifies a chin as a "lazy chewer" and where this idea originally came from. Is it when a chin has teeth that are aligned and no elongated roots, but has spurs?