Heart Murmurs

[Brittany]

I had an interesting discussion with one of the exotic vets at the U of I. I was just thinking about it, and thought it would be interesting to post.

Including my girls the vets had seen a total of 8 chinchillas that week. The exotic intern was commenting that all of the chins had a heart murmur of some degree. I don't know the levels of the previous 6 animals, but Lily's was a borderline level 1-2. Lady's was a very low 1, hardly audible from what I was told.

The intern was starting to hypothesize that heart murmurs might be a common genetic occurrence in American bred chinchillas, since they can trace their roots back to a few original animals (14 I believe?). I told the intern that while I wasn't 100% sure on Lady's origins there was a possibility that she had been shipped in from the Netherlands, so she may not be related to American bred chins. The intern just said it was an interesting trend she was starting to notice and we left it at that.

Are heart murmurs common in chinchillas? I thought it would be interesting to see if any of you had any thoughts?

 

[ticklechin]

The murmurs started out here on the west coast around 7 or 8 years ago, they were not seen really anywhere else then, but because chins are shipped and sold all over the USA murmurs started to show up everywhere. Murmurs under a class 3 are usually benign, over a class 3 to 6 can lead to heart failure and heart issues such as congestive heart failure-it also depends on which heart valve is involved-mital valves produce the swoosh click noise and cause more problems for chins-AKA the clicker ticker.

 

[Claire D]

At the risk of being contentious & slightly contradictory at the same time I have to say that I think it takes a skilled vet to detect an actual heart murmur in a chinchilla. I think murmurs are not always accurately diagnosed & they can be over & under diagnosed.
The danger of over diagnosis is that the poor chin gets treated differently "just in case the murmur leads to heart failure" & the chin is molly-coddled to death by being "wrapped in cotton wool". The other issue is the statistics & theories which get thrown around with no "proof" - it just makes people paranoid.
I also agree with Dawn that most murmurs are benign in nature - they have no clinical impact on the chinchilla & a diagnosis does nothing but panic the owner.

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

I also have to say that a "heart murmur" can be induced if not ausculted correctly. Therefore giving it a misdiagnosis.

 

[ticklechin]

I can't hear a class 3, but I could clearly hear a class 5, so the more serious the murmur the more likely it is a murmur.

 

[Brittany]

At the risk of being contentious & slightly contradictory at the same time I have to say that I think it takes a skilled vet to detect an actual heart murmur in a chinchilla. I think murmurs are not always accurately diagnosed & they can be over & under diagnosed.
The danger of over diagnosis is that the poor chin gets treated differently "just in case the murmur leads to heart failure" & the chin is molly-coddled to death by being "wrapped in cotton wool". The other issue is the statistics & theories which get thrown around with no "proof" - it just makes people paranoid.
I also agree with Dawn that most murmurs are benign in nature - they have no clinical impact on the chinchilla & a diagnosis does nothing but panic the owner.

I see your point Claire, but I disagree with your last sentence (perhaps I'm not understanding your intent). Even if a slight murmur is benign and has no impact on the chin's current state of health I still appreciate the vet telling me everything that was found. I wasn't panicked by the diagnosis, and I'm not trying to make anyone else panic for that matter. Different animal species and breeds have certain ailments that they are more prone to, and I just thought the intern's comment was interesting. Since this forum as a whole has way more chinchilla experience then any 1 vet I was just curious to know if heart murmurs were a condition common in chins.

As far as my chin is concerned I don't plan to treat her any different. When I talked to the intern and her superiors they all said that at this point it was so slight that I shouldn't worry about it. Years down the road if she needs to go to the vet I'll have them take a listen to see if it's progressed, but that's the extent of me thinking about it.

 

[ticklechin]

My vet dentist does let chin parents know about murmurs and the potential for issues when they are put under-I would guess it is to cover herself if case of death. I know every single time Gino got filed, he had a class 5, I had to sign a waiver of liability, my other chin who has a class 2 and sees her I just got a warning the first time.

 

[Claire D]

I see your point Claire, but I disagree with your last sentence (perhaps I'm not understanding your intent). Even if a slight murmur is benign and has no impact on the chin's current state of health I still appreciate the vet telling me everything that was found. I wasn't panicked by the diagnosis, and I'm not trying to make anyone else panic for that matter.

No, you're not understanding my intent & you're jumping to wild conclusions about my post but that's ok.


I'm not saying vets should not inform owners of murmurs at all. In fact, I believe the opposite - owners should be very well informed.
However, if a vet misdiagnoses a murmur or does not explain clearly what a murmur means then owners can panic. Some murmurs don't have any effect at all but if the vet does not explain this to the client then they could adversely affect the life of the chinchilla (wrapping them in cotton wool) when it's unnecessary. Same if a vet mishears a murmur - e.g. mistakes breath sounds for a murmur. A chin which is stressed by being at the vets can have very loud breath sounds - these can mask heart murmurs or, at the opposite extreme, be misinterpreted as a murmur when one does not exist.
The flip side is also true - if a vet does not listen to the heart sounds fully & carefully (all around the chest) then it is possible to miss a murmur entirely.

One of the issues we raise time & again on the forum is that a chinchilla needs a full/proper assessment by a fully qualified, chinchilla competent veterinary professional. The key point I was making in my initial post is that murmurs can be under or over diagnosed & IMHO neither situation is particularly helpful - hopefully a chinchilla competent vet will not do that, though, & will take time to explain to an owner exactly what they have found & if a murmur is heard, what the likely progress (if any) might be & what steps (if any) the owner needs to take.

Labelling every chin as having a murmur is not helpful (which is what has happened in some instances). Not diagnosing a murmur if one is present is also not helpful ...........

 

[ticklechin]

I know we had this discussion that got very heated on CNQ, but how many chins are out there in herds with murmurs, since they all do not go to vets for "wellness" checks or are evaluated by a vet prior to breeding. The only way murmurs TBH showed up IMO is pet owners who took their chins to the vet for wellness exams. The breeder I got my class 5 from had many MANY chins that were sold with at least class 4 murmurs, I know of 4 personally who died from heart failure. And when I went through it I got emails and PMs about problems with other of this breeders chins.

 

[Brittany]

No, you're not understanding my intent & you're jumping to wild conclusions about my post but that's ok.

Thank you for your second post that does help to clarify. I wasn't trying to upset you with my comment. That's is why I acknowledged that I was perhaps misinterpreting your initial intent, because it is much easier to read things the wrong way versus discussing something in person.

I know we had this discussion that got very heated on CNQ, but how many chins are out there in herds with murmurs, since they all do not go to vets for "wellness" checks or are evaluated by a vet prior to breeding. The only way murmurs TBH showed up IMO is pet owners who took their chins to the vet for wellness exams. The breeder I got my class 5 from had many MANY chins that were sold with at least class 4 murmurs, I know of 4 personally who died from heart failure. And when I went through it I got emails and PMs about problems with other of this breeders chins.

I wasn't around on CNQ so I'm sorry for dragging up any sore subjects. I personally think it would be hard for large ranchers to take every potential breeding chin in for a check-up. With that being said I hope that if a situation came up like the one Dawn described that the breeder would then look into the lines and pull chins from breeding to try to prevent future problems. In that case it seems similar to what responsible breeders do when cases of malo occur.

 

[aznmexaggie]

I've taken some of my chins to the Chinchilla Health Day at Adobe. It is basically a wellness check and I took 6 chins there so the vet students could get more experience. My pet chin, Rayna, who had been diagnosed with murmurs before was found again to have a murmur. I can't remember exactly offhand but I believe it was class 3. My pet chin Gizmo who had been to the vet before and not diagnosed with a murmur, was said to have a class 2 at this exam. Only one of the rescue chins I brought had a murmur.

My vet also diagnosed Mousey as having a mild murmur (class 1) in her exam last month but then when she was performing the amputation, she said her murmur disappeared. Would this be a case of an inaccurate diagnosis of a murmur?

 

[ticklechin]

As far as Mousey goes, young chins like young people often the murmur goes away as they mature, it happend frequently with young chins.

 

[Claire D]

My vet also diagnosed Mousey as having a mild murmur (class 1) in her exam last month but then when she was performing the amputation, she said her murmur disappeared. Would this be a case of an inaccurate diagnosis of a murmur?

My understanding is that chins can be difficult to examine in terms of properly assessing heart problems - their heart rate is fast, their breathing can mask/hide/cover over heart sounds, & they are easily stressed.

Personally I think that a murmur should not be given as a diagnosis until it has been heard at least twice (on separate occasions) - having said that, a thumping great murmur generally does not need a second consult to confirm diagnosis.

As your situation describes, Sumiko, sometimes a mild murmur can apparently "disappear" so it was possibly not there in the first place - maybe a misdiagnosis & illustrates some of my concerns around murmurs & chins quite nicely.

Brittany, absolutely - responsible breeders will pull lines as problems arise. If they don't then, to my mind, they are unscrupulous.

As far as Mousey goes, young chins like young people often the murmur goes away as they mature, it happend frequently with young chins.

Interesting - do you have any verification for this, Dawn?

 

[ticklechin]

Thank you for your second post that does help to clarify. I wasn't trying to upset you with my comment. That's is why I acknowledged that I was perhaps misinterpreting your initial intent, because it is much easier to read things the wrong way versus discussing something in person.




I wasn't around on CNQ so I'm sorry for dragging up any sore subjects. I personally think it would be hard for large ranchers to take every potential breeding chin in for a check-up. With that being said I hope that if a situation came up like the one Dawn described that the breeder would then look into the lines and pull chins from breeding to try to prevent future problems. In that case it seems similar to what responsible breeders do when cases of malo occur.

At the time, those involved in the discussion besides me argued that murmurs did not even exist, and the lines that my class 5 came from did not get pulled after the issue was brought up, that is to the best of my knowledge at the last contact. I think now breeders are more aware that there are murmurs and I would hope that if a issue did arise and a chin died that it would be treated like a malo line.