Hanging bottles for quads...

[Pookinaround]

Oh boy! Shelbey had a littler of 4 quads this morning (She is the chin with the polka dotted butt which is my avatar. I knew she was big but whoo...
Shelbey's kits:
PAC B12 Standard Male 56g
PAC B13 Mosaic Female 49g
PAC B14 Mosaic Male 58g
PAC B15 Standard Female 52g

They were bickering a little at first but now have seemed to arrange themselves two pr. side of mom and have settled in a bit.

I hung a 50/50 apple juice/water bottle for mom and all Wal Mart had (that wasn't expired) was canned evaporated goat's milk. I used Pedialyte to reconstitute it at a 50/50 ratio. How often should I change these out and is it adviseable to have them both hanging at the same time?

Never tried this before and I want to leave things as natural as possible. Never had quads yet either and wanted to try and give her an extra boost if I could. I had trips once so far and I didn't do anything extra there. Mom raised those 3 just fine by herself. Didn't know if quads was pushing the limit or not....

 

[Dreamlite]

I have only had 1 female who could raise quads without help. I wouldn't hand a bottle of milk on the cage. I have had 4 different kits die from asperating from that. I am currently handraising a litter of 3 kits, and don't trust trying the milk bottle again.

 

[EMSChins]

I have hung goats milk on the cage many times without an issue but they will be several days old before they will try it and need to get used to the taste thru supplementing first (this is my personal experience, I am sure others have had differnt experiences). I also make sure there is lots of fresh hay for the kits as well as Jags dry kit food. I would watch closely as you may have to rotate until moms milk comes in.

 

[Claire D]

There's no point in hanging a bottle of formula unless a kit has been taught how to use it - using a bottle isn't done "just like that" - it's not a short cut. It takes time and patience for the kits to get used to drinking that way and it's usually only used once a kit is taking formula from a pipette/syringe/dropper regularly, is a few days old, and is gaining weight.

I have successfully raised kits using the bottle method with no problems whatsoever but it does take time to teach them. http://www.davidson-chinchillas.co.uk/pages/hand_rearing___alternative_approach.php


Quads do take time to settle so I would keep a close watch for now - if you are lucky, they will sort themselves out a nipple each. If not, then they will fight for the top two nipples and you may well have to rotate them.

As for the apple juice & water mix - I would love to know where this idea comes from of giving nursing mothers extra sugar in the form of apple juice. What's the reasoning?

 

[ArmyWife]

Is it because the mother will be more likely to drink instead of always staying with the kits? So she gets enough fluids to produce enough milk for all of them?

 

[Pookinaround]

Should I just wait then till tomorrow or the next day to even consider supplementing and just judge whether they need it or not by their degree of weight loss or should I try hand feeding and rotate starting now? I wanted to stay away from supplementing as much as I could but that was a pretty big litter so not sure...

 

[Pookinaround]

I do have a makeshift brooder that I had on hand but have never needed it. (Was intended for another type of animal). What it is is a 10 gal aquarium with a screen lid and a under the tank reptile heater with a thermometer. I could line the bottom with fleece. Could I use that to rotate? Just switch them 2 by 2 at 2 hour intervals right? I have never rotated or supplemented yet so sorry if I sound totally clueless but I AM when it comes to this one. Gotta learn sometime though

Anyone know the link for the JAGS supplement recipe?

 

[Amphy64]

Here it is: http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13699&highlight=JAGS+supplement+recipe&page=2

1 part goat's milk replacer POWDER
1 part ground pellets
1 part 1/2 baby rice cereal and 1/2 baby oatmeal cereal.

Best of luck with them all.

 

[Pookinaround]

Thank you amphy64!!!!

 

[javachin]

If you keep the apple juice mixture, change it after a few hours. Or just offer it during parts of the day. It goes bad fast. I also wouldn't hang a bottle of goat's milk. If you find you have to supplement, you should do it by hand if the need arises.

 

[CTChin]

I would definitely watch them carefully. I have had large litters that seemed ok at first only to look into the cage and find a kit with a horrible nose wound. Sometimes it's from another kit or sometimes it is from mom who gets frustrated with the bickering.

 

[Pookinaround]

Well...it looks like there is a bully in the mix chasing it's siblings around so I am going to start rotating. Let's see how this goes... I haven't heard anyone's comments about the "brooder" I mentioned. I am not going to turn the heater on yet but ideally how warm do I want it in there?

 

[Dreamlite]

I don't use any sort of heater. I always have a friendly female that is willing to groom and sit with the kit. She is a 14 yr old retired breeder I kept for a weaning buddy and she does her job well. I'm currently hand feeding 1 kit and rotating a liter of triplets so I'm right up there with you, lol. Good luck. How are their weights today?

 

[jbcstratton]

Never had quads here, good luck. Will check back to see how they are doing.

 

[Claire D]

Small heat mats are great if you have wire floored cages (like we do in the UK) because they just provide enough warmth to keep the kits comfy if the female wanders off a bit.
I suspect, from having chatted to some of my US chinny pals, that with the shavings and solid pans primarily used there, you don't need heaters nearly as much.

Having said that, when you take a couple of kits out, if you don't have a surrogate to sit on them then a little warm box should do the trick. I use a plastic carrier and line it with fleece plus have a little bit of fleece as a blanket (and a buddy of some kind) to make a nice cozy bed.
I tuck the kits in and that's usually enough for them.

Good luck with the rotating.

 

[Pookinaround]

Here are pics of the quads! I am rotating them by gender because both boys are bigger than both girls. 1st pic are the boys 2nd is the girls. Shoots lines both sides. Mom is a mosaic and dad is a pure standard. This pair was together a total of 9 days before he got her pregnant. Talk about fertile myrtle...LOL

Today's weights are:
B12-50g (suspected troublemaker)
B13-45g (laid back personality & sat fairly well for feeding)
B14-53g (nice laid back personality but a little more fiesty than above)
B15-47g (ate from the dropper like a champ)

I took these weights early this afternoon closer to the same time I took the original weights. Everyone seems active and energetic.

I did have another mom have twins yesterday too who is a bit smaller than Shelbey. If she would have only had 1 I probably would have tried to foster 1 with her but I was scared 3 would have been too much. Both are 1st time mom's so I wasn't sure of their abilities yet...

 

[VolunteerChin22]

I would not use the juice mixture at all. I also would not use pedilyte to dilute goats milk. Evaporated is fine, just mix it with equal parts filtered water. I typically divide it in an ice cube tray or smaller containers as it will go bad within a day or two and you'll never use all of it.

I agree with the others that I would not hang a bottle at this point. That's my last resort if I can't have anyone watch them and I have to be gone for more than a couple of hours.

Personally, it's also a little too early to tell if you need to supplement at all. I had a mother raise quads her first time with no help. Many of them can handle large litters just fine. Just watch the weights and check for injuries. If trouble maker needs to rotate out that's what I would do first until you determine you need to supplement. My strategy is always try to let them do it unless someone stops gaining or gets injured. Then rotation. Then supplementing and rotating if weights don't improve with rotating alone as a last resort. I never fostered out a kit but that would have been after trying rotation.

I wouldn't use the heat lamp either - I would just put some fleece in there and depending on how cold the room is they will keep each other warm or you can put in a snuggle buddy. If you feel absolutely compelled you could put a heating pad under half of the carrier on low but even that seems unnecessary unless your room is like 40 degrees or something.

 

[Pookinaround]

Thanks everyone for all of your suggestions! I do really appreciate it. You know what I think is good about a thread like this...you get to hear so many different ways of doing things! There are so many different approaches that can be taken and it is nice to hear them all so not just me but everyone can learn from something like this.

What I actually ended up doing was just pulling them 2x2 just to try and get them used to the dropper. I didn't use the heater and I didn't keep them out long but I did leave the boys out a bit longer cause one of them was my problem child plus they are a bit bigger. Once I find powdered goat's milk I'll make the JAGS supplement. I tried a second grocery store today and they didn't have it either but I did get both baby cereals. I only hung the juice bottle during the day yesterday and haven't given it back since and we'll see if they need an extra milk bottle hung later but if they do just in case they will at least be used to the dropper.

So moral of the story is that hearing EVERYONE's input is valuable.

 

[Pookinaround]

Shelbey earned herself a new nickname today....I call her "The Dalmatian Sensation" LOL She is doing such a great job! I haven't done anything extra since last night and nobody is beat up and everyone gained 1g except for the standard female who gained 2g! YAY!!! Do you all think I am ok just letting her go at it alone?

 

[Dreamlite]

If they are gainign on rotating I wouldn't suplement. Just keep doing what you are doing. Depending on how well moms milk comes in you may be able to put all the kits back together, but that also depends on their attitudes as well.