Do you believe this

[ABBY W.]

I think there are a lot of assumptions being made about how these animals have been raised or treated. I don't think there is any reason to believe that they are being ignored, or experimented on. The representative may have used the phrase "positive reinforcement", that does not mean experimentation. It just means rewarding good behavior. It could be something as simple as giving a treat for returning to the cage after playtime, or performing a specific act. I have all of my chins trained to go to a specific shelf in the cage to receive treats. We recommend negative reinforcement techniques all the time on this forum and others. When you tell someone to blow in the face of a chinchilla that bites, you are telling them to use negative reinforcement to discourage a bad behavior. Does this mean you are experimenting on your animal?

It sounds to me like these people know what they are doing and have the best interests of the animals at heart. Otherwise they would not be looking to "retire them", they would simply euthanize them, as often happens with animals used in laboratories.

It seems like some of you are overreacting and making judgements you don't have the information to make. If you are that concerned I would suggest you ask to visit the facility and see for yourself what kind of environment and treatment the animals are receiving. Not only that, but I think it is every bit as foolish to assume that YOU know everything because you own chinchillas, or belong to a forum, as it is for a vet or an educated person to do so. We all have much to learn about these animals. Maybe we would learn it faster if we could stop being close-minded and defensive and start listening to one another.

 

[andymilo]

And there's people who eat McDonald's and other junk daily that manage to be perfectly healthy, and dogs that have fine lives on Pedigree/Purina/(insert junk food here). Does it make it good and healthy? No, it just means that there's an animal who passed the odds.

are pedigree/purina not good for dogs? i always thought the were the leaders in good quality food for dogs?

 

[threewingedfury]

I've had 3 different vets (2 were exotic vets) tell me to give fresh veggies and fruits to my chins, but I don't because I don't want to take the chance. Most people are going to take their vets word over a breeder, it's as simple as that.

 

[Inca-bink]

OK, I didn't read through this entire thread, but I read the first couple posts, and I just want to say - I've got a wildlife degree, and I've had all the training this person is claiming (physiology, parasitology, etc.). Plus I am very interested in nutrition and have taken numerous classes including basic, advanced, pet, and wildlife nutrition, and my senior thesis was in nutrition. And I can tell you that just because you have the schooling, it doesn't mean that you automatically know the proper diet necessary for long-term health, especially when it comes to wild and exotic animals. I can't tell you the number of people who have incredibly advanced degrees but have NO husbandry skills whatsoever. So taking the "we know better than you, we have training" route is ridiculous, and downright insulting. It isn't a good attitude to have, even if he does believe he knows best. That kind of attitude will never benefit anyone, and just BEGS for husbandry problems.

That said, I don't completely disagree with him. I don't provide fresh veggies or dried fruits to my animals because my training and common sense says that it is not necessary. There is a risk associated with providing such a concentrated sugar source, especially because it is "dead weight" in a diet (not really adding anything except sugars, but taking up space that could be filled with more appropriate and beneficial foods, like hay (keeps your smile bright and your teeth the proper length!)). He and the vet should assess the risks they are taking, and make the decision - is it worth it? Maybe to them it is worth it, or maybe they haven't taken the time to understand the opposing arguement. The truth is that animals do have some flexibility in their systems, and after 13 years of this diet the chins they already have are probably used to it and it isn't going to cause any sudden problems. However, there are no studies published that indicate whether there are long term negative effects to a higher sugar diet (or any other diet, for that matter). But it doesn't mean that the next chinchillas will be able to adapt to that diet either - and his attitude suggests that they probably won't look at the husbandry first thing if problems do start popping up.

I also know that there are healthier, effective tools I can use for positive reinforcement (Yes, I train my chinchillas. I train them to go back in their cage when I tell them to "go home" and I train them to come to me when I call. We're working on "up" onto my hand. I don't think I'm abusing them by trainng them to do these things to make my life easier. I don't smack them or yell at them. That isn't what training is.)

So to me, with a very similar background to this individual (except I work in wild wildlife and he works in captive management) I would rather maintain a more conservative approach. And he can disagree with me, but he cannot call me uneducated. It just proves there may be different opinions, but the ability to form a coherent argument does not mean that the things argued for are right to the exclusion of all else. You have to take the information you can get and pair it up with your value system to make these judgements. Some people will take those risks; and while I disagree, I don't believe that it constitutes abuse of the animals. And Barb, you have every right to refuse to sell your chins to this person since you believe the risks this person will take are unacceptable. He could have handled the disagreement in a better way, allowing him to come to a compromise that would benefit the animals themselves instead of his ego.

But that's just my 2 cents. I have to go chase Willow away from my paperback again now...

 

[equus_peduus]

We recommend negative reinforcement techniques all the time on this forum and others. When you tell someone to blow in the face of a chinchilla that bites, you are telling them to use negative reinforcement to discourage a bad behavior.

The "positive" and "negative" mean "adding" or "removing" something to the animal's environment.

The "reinforcement" and "punishment" mean that the change is going to make the behavior "more likely" or "less likely."

Thus, blowing into the chin's face is positive punishment (adding something to make a behavior less likely). As far as categorization goes, it's the same as saying "no," yelling, hitting, or tapping them on the nose.

Negative punishment (remove something to make something less likely) would be taking something away - something like ignoring the animal (removing attention: dog wants attention, finds that barking isn't getting it attention, and eventually stops barking; you then couple this with positive reinforcement by praising the dog as soon as he's quiet).

Positive reinforcement adds something to make a behavior more likely - a treat, praise, attention. This works for the cat that yowls for food: cat yowls (behavior), person feeds (reward).

Negative reinforcement (remove something to make behavior more likely) would be "giving" to a horse - you ask them to collect with some pressure from the reins (yes, simplified), and when they bend into the pressure, you relax that pressure a little - removing an adverse stimulus when they do something correctly. This would also could be an aggressive dog: he growls, and rather than disciplining the dog or ignoring the dog or standing one's ground (whichever is most appropriate under the circumstances...), the person backs off. That is, we have removed the person's presence to a particular behavior, which has ended up rewarding that behavior. I never said that the behaviors we're making more or less likely are "good" things ;P

anyway. these terms get misused all the time, because people don't understand them. The positive and negative are NOT indicative of how "good" they are to the animal on the receiving end - that's what the reinforcement vs punishment is for. No one category is necessary better than the others - they all have their uses, both appropriate and not.

 

[ABBY W.]

LOL You learn something new every day. But my point is still the same. I don't believe that the methods necessarily imply experimentation or cruel/indifferent attitudes to the animal's well-being.

 

[greychins]

I may get blasted for this but oh well I'll say it, lol . Their chins are 13 years old, how bad can the way they are caring for them be?? I think it just shows the animals systems can adjust to different diets and such without problems.

The last person I adopted a chin out to - they had two 13 yr old chins, and two 11 yr old babies of these chins (they thought they had two females, then, babies...the gf took the females, the guy I talked to had the original male and the baby male)... I asked them the usual questions about food, care, etc. Found out he'd been feeding a mix of Charlie Chinchilla and Kaytee Fiesta for the last 13 years. I told him if he adopted my girl he'd have to continue feeding her Mazuri or a different high quality pellet, cause I wouldn't adopt to him if he was going to feed her that junk (I worded it nicely though - although I did bluntly state that I believe those to be the worst two foods for chins on the market).

Amazingly, he went and did his own research and came back saying "Wow, you're right! Those are crappy foods, you really know your stuff!!" and I believe he said he was going to switch all his chins over to Mazuri (and he did adopt the female and is continuing her on her Mazuri).

Anyway, point being. Between him and the gf, they had four chins all over 11 yrs that had been eating absolute junk food for their whole lives. Just cause they didn't somehow die from that food doesn't mean it was the right thing to feed them. We all know that Charlie and Kaytee Fiesta are horrible. IMO, they just got lucky.

And as for the person that says "oh it works for them, good for the chins." While these chins may look fine on the outside, it's not like we can open them up and see how these things are affecting their insides. Their livers may be on the verge of failing, they may really be sick and be hiding their sickness. It's like with kids. You feed a kid veggies and a balanced diet, they generally feel fine. If they eat sugary junk every day, they may feel less good, more sugar highs and low's, upset stomachs, that sort of stuff... but they can TELL us that they don't feel good, and what's the first thing a lot of people say?: "What did you eat?" It's not like chins can tell us "oh mom, I felt better when I was eating the plain pellets, now that I'm on junk food daily, my stomach hurts..."

I have no background in nutrition and I don't have a very informed opinion about whether dried veggies/fruits could safely be given to chins. Since I think there's too much risk, for me, it's not worth it. I'm not sure if it could be done without harm, so I choose not to. However, my view is that just because it hasn't killed them yet, or just because health problems haven't cropped up yet, this doesn't mean they couldn't. It's like those people that eat McDonalds all their life (like someone else said) -sometimes they're healthy as a cow, but regardless, it's hardly a good, balanced diet...

I don't think the guy was rude or anything, he seemed professional enough - unfortunately, there hasn't been tons of research done on chins, so it's not quite so easy for all of us to point to studies that say that chins do better on pellet-only diets. It's not like ranchers that have been around hundreds of years publish what is common sense to them....

 

[iayla]

When you wrote to this gentleman, did you try to include the "new" information out there stating how grapes & raisins cause renal failure in dogs & other pets? Our vet used to tell us the occasional raisin was fine, up till about 2-3 yrs ago. Then my dog's vet warned us that he'd recently learned of the issue with grapes/raisins (it something in the skin of the grape that affects the animals). We live in a small town and the vet remembered we have concord grape vines growing madly around our yard, and he worried our dog might try eating them.

This is fairly new information, in comparison to the number of years they've been caring for those chins. I'm not totally opposed to small amounts of veggies (or maybe even fruit) in a chinchilla's diet, if done properly and slowly, but I dont see any reason to continue feeding raisins when proven to do harm.

Just my own thoughts (and just now coming across this thread) sorry for the late response.
~Barb~

 

[Mt. Zion Chins]

this person feels the anything I said is wrong and he knows all - I have stopped emailing the person - I was getting no where

 

[Anne-Lise]

Anyway, point being. Between him and the gf, they had four chins all over 11 yrs that had been eating absolute junk food for their whole lives. Just cause they didn't somehow die from that food doesn't mean it was the right thing to feed them. We all know that Charlie and Kaytee Fiesta are horrible. IMO, they just got lucky.

That is exactly what I think. Some people will smoke 2 packs a day for their entire life and die from something not even closely related to cigarette, and some will smoke few years and develop emphysema....

 

[Bethany]

Okay, I have had advanced veterinary anatomy, physiology, nutrition, parasitology and more. I can tell you that we didn’t learn a single thing about chinchillas (except parasitology). I would have to agree with Steph that they probably haven’t taken the time to see if it is worth the risk. Sadly they probably never will.

On a side note, they probably are extremely well cared for, aside from the fruit.

 

[goodchin]

is this how this site always works?

I am new to this forum and have been reading the thread regarding the Academy of Natural Sciences and care of their chinchillas. Is this how this site normally works? because it seems to me that you only have one side of the conversation between the breeder and the Academy. What questions did the breeder ask? Was he or she rude to the Academy person? You only see what the breeder wished to post? I have serious concerns about this site if they do not look at all sides of an issue and post negative information without all the facts and discuss other individuals without their knowledge.

 

[volunteer]

my first post

I just read all the replies back and forth and wanted people to know that I used to volunteer at the Academy many years ago (over 20) when I was a teenager. If it is the same Academy in Philadelphia they are a museum that has been using animals to educate people for a really long time. They do not do any research on them and they used to take peoples unwanted or mistreated pets. When I was there they had 4 chins and one was over 15 years old. I remember him because he was so old and still so spunky (his name was Rocky..very fitting for Philadelphia). This is where I started to love chins. I don't know who is working there now but they always took really good care of the animals. From what I have read it sounds like the diet is similar to when I was there as a kid. So I don't know if it is good or bad just that they have been keeping chins for a very long time and they seem to do well. :thumbsup: