Can anyone explain ebonies?

[jacd061506]

I would like to know the difference (if any) between a homo and hetero ebony.

Also what is the difference between light, medium, dark and extra dark.

I have to females that both have "medium ebony" on their peds but one looks like a dark standard grey (with matching belly of course) and the other looks like the veiling on my black velvet only overing her entire body. Both peds only list the past generations as ebonies or ebony carriers no light, med, dark ect.
Why would there be such a big difference between the two "medium ebonies"?

Then I have a male whose ped says he is a hetero dark ebony but the breeder refered to him as an extra dark ebony. his mom was a dark tan and his dad was a hetero extra dark ebony (according to the ped)
What is he?

I'll get some pictures tonight and post in the morning. Thanks for the replies.

 

[Andrea]

You will have to post photos to really get the answers you are seeking, but I will say there is no such thing as a "hetero extra dark ebony." An extra dark ebony IS a homo ebony.

A light ebony can look like a standard, but with a dirty/light gray belly. Actually, I have seen some ebony carrier chins who have dirty bellies as well. A medium ebony is slightly darker (less gray, more black) and a dark ebony is a phase darker (more black). A homo ebony or extra dark ebony has shiny BLACK hair with no gray at all. I have twin homo ebony girls and they are pitch black. If you google "ebony chinchilla" you can look at many different photos of the different color phases. To me it sounds like you have a light ebony female and a medium ebony female...not so sure on the male...I will have to see pictures.

 

[threewingedfury]

You will have to post photos to really get the answers you are seeking, but I will say there is no such thing as a "hetero extra dark ebony." An extra dark ebony IS a homo ebony.

No, that's not true. I have produced extra dark ebonies out of standard and extra dark ebony pairs and they are not homozygous ebs, they are still heterozygous ebonies even if they are every hair shiny black. Many have called extra dark ebonies as homozygous ebonies for years, but it's really just an incorrect term to use. We cannot say for sure that the extra dark ebonies are carrying only ebony genes. There are many different ebony genes that create our ebonies today. They are not just dominant or recessive, they are cumulative. That is why you can have ebonies show up generations down the line when you don't expect there to be ebonies in your lines.

 

[Andrea]

No, that's not true. I have produced extra dark ebonies out of standard and extra dark ebony pairs and they are not homozygous ebs, they are still heterozygous ebonies even if they are every hair shiny black. Many have called extra dark ebonies as homozygous ebonies for years, but it's really just an incorrect term to use. We cannot say for sure that the extra dark ebonies are carrying only ebony genes. There are many different ebony genes that create our ebonies today. They are not just dominant or recessive, they are cumulative. That is why you can have ebonies show up generations down the line when you don't expect there to be ebonies in your lines.

I have never heard someone refer to a chin as a "extra dark hetero ebony." I guess it is just terminology confusion or misuse then. Maybe because the breeder I got the twins from calls all her homo ebonies "extra dark ebonies"...I thought it was an interchangeable term. I didn't even know you could get a chin with every hair being shiny black and yet it would still be considered a hetero ebony. I'm glad I know now though as I do not want to confuse anyone! Thanks Tiffany

 

[threewingedfury]

Most folks just leave off the "hetero" these days and call them light, medium, dark, and extra dark ebs. Some still use the term homo eb. It's just much more simplistic to stick to the basics and go by what we see - we can't say that a extra dark eb out of a standard and a eb is homozygous for the trait. You can put two extra dark ebonies (what you would assume to be homo ebs) together and still produce lighter phased ebonies - you would assume that breeding two "homozygous" animals together, you would again get the homozygous trait at all times, but that's just not the case with ebonies.

 

[RDZCRanch]

Any genes that cause the color to wrap to the belly of the chinchillas was dubbed "ebony" by the earlier ranchers when it started appearing. Most of them were due to different genetics, but the idea that an ebony is an ebony took hold and everything got tossed together that had coloring wrapping to the belly. It's the reason it is so hard to produce one color phase of ebony consistently these days. There have been at least 7 separate genes identified that contribute to the ebony coloring, some are recessive and some are dominant. Calling any ebony "homo" or "hetero" would be misuse of those terms as it refers to their genetics and you cannot say if an ebony is hetero or homo based on appearance alone.

The terms light, medium, dark and extra dark are better terms that describe the phenotypes of ebonies which is all we can see. Your breeder is incorrect in calling your two girls "homo" ebonies, the proper term would be extra dark ebony.

To the OP, an ebony that looks like a black velvet with a darker belly could be a TOV ebony. This just means that black velvet and ebony were crossed, giving the offspring the distinct markings of the TOV (touch of velvet) gene which are a distinct and dark mask as well as dark veiling down the back. Sometimes medium dark ebonies can imitate TOV ebonies, because to an untrained eye darkening color around the face can look similar to a mask. An ebony that looks like a standard with a similar colored belly would just be a light ebony. If you can post pictures of them in natural lighting we could give you a better idea of what to classify them as.

 

[mishalaa]

Ebony is not a gene. It is a phenotype.

There are several genes which produce this phenotype, seven of which have been identified to date (Charcoal, Tasco, French Blue, Busse, Midwest City Black, Treadwell and Sakrison).

Charcoals are a recessive ebony, because they are recessive they must be homozygous, but they are not typically extra dark - so they are a true homo eb but can be pretty light.

Other than those working with the pure recessive charcoals, no one knows which strains of ebony they are working with as the seven mutations were bred together trying to accumulate the phenotype and produce darker chins. Thus, anytime someone uses the term "hetero" or "homo' ebony to describe their color phase, they are not entirely accurate.

 

[3CsMommy]

*is looking forward to the pictures and analysis by breederly types* I've been a big fan of this mute since I started researching to own chins. It'll be nice to have a picture and an explanation side-by-side.

 

[Andrea]

Actually the breeder I got the twins from uses "extra dark ebony" as a term for homo ebony and I believe they are homo eb's. They come from eb parents and every hair is shiny jet black. I guess there is no way to know for sure, but either way they appear as the very dark color phase labeled often as "homo ebony."

 

[mishalaa]

Actually the breeder I got the twins from uses "extra dark ebony" as a term for homo ebony and I believe they are homo eb's. They come from eb parents and every hair is shiny jet black. I guess there is no way to know for sure, but either way they appear as the very dark color phase labeled often as "homo ebony."

Again, "homo" and "hetero" refer only to genotypes of which no breeder other than those working with the charcoals knows for certain.

"Light," "medium," "dark," and "extra dark" refer to phenotype, which is what you see.

Even though it was once common, using "homo ebony" (genotype descriptor) to refer to phenotype (extra dark) is misuse. Just because both parents were ebony does not necessarily mean the animal is homozygous on any or all of the seven known genes.

Charcoals can come out of standards (so long as they're carriers), but are still homo ebs.

 

[LovinTheSmallAndFurry]

I'd been wondering about the distinctions for awhile myself. Thanks for the thread! :thumbsup:

 

[designer chins]

This is why they wanted to muzzle me at my first few Empress shows when they would bump one of my extra darks into the 'homo' eb class & I would inform them "she is out of a standard and can't be 'homo'!" . I am waiting for them to change the hetero & homo labels to something like ebony/TOV ebony/extra dark ebony classes. It drives me nuts that they don't use phenotype labels, just ask Vicki M! She's the one who was ready to sedate me, LOL! But its my pet peeve...

 

[Andrea]

So technically there is no way to know if a chin is a homo ebony unless you are working with charcoals? Why even use homo and hetero? Why not just color phases? I know it's a genetic term but if we can't be sure of the genetics then it's likely used incorrectly quite often...

 

[mishalaa]

So technically there is no way to know if a chin is a homo ebony unless you are working with charcoals? Why even use homo and hetero? Why not just color phases? I know it's a genetic term but if we can't be sure of the genetics then it's likely used incorrectly quite often...

That is exactly what we're saying.

Using homo and hetero to refer to phase was common practice, but with persistent buggers like Wendy, Tab, myself and a few others, more and more breeders are saying light/medium/dark/extra dark instead, as they should be. But old habits die hard.

Personally, using "white" and "mosaic" interchangeably as well as "wilson white" when "predominantly white" is meant are bigger pet peeves of mine, but I don't actually work with ebonies so it doesn't bother me as much.

 

[chinsNdobermans]

I've tried to get away from those terms myself, as we've gotten more and more involved with ebonies. I always use light/medium/dark/extra dark, or at least try to. As you learn more about the mutation, it seems more correct that way.

I've always been a stickler for using the correct term with whites, so I guess it just comes from that, although I no longer work much with whites.

 

[jacd061506]

Here are the pictures I promised....my camera is MIA so these were taking quickly on my phone in cages, so are not the best quality nor the best representation of my ebony chins....I'll find my camera and get some pictures with a background and better lighting....what is the recomended background color for ebonys during picture taking?

My medium ebony female Miley (dark grey) first pic
My medium ebony female Jane (black) second pic
My extra dark ebony male Stitch (dark black)third pic

edit: My grey girl looks much darker in this picture then she really is, she is usually mistaken for a standard!

 

[LovinTheSmallAndFurry]

Here are the pictures I promised....my camera is MIA so these were taking quickly on my phone in cages, so are not the best quality nor the best representation of my ebony chins....I'll find my camera and get some pictures with a background and better lighting....what is the recomended background color for ebonys during picture taking?

My medium ebony female Miley (dark grey) first pic
My medium ebony female Jane (black) second pic
My extra dark ebony male Stitch (dark black)third pic

edit: My grey girl looks much darker in this picture then she really is, she is usually mistaken for a standard!

I'm still confused on the terms :neener: However, if I find a chin that is as cute as your Stitch, or TrioOfFluff's twin girls, call him or her what you want....it's MINE!

 

[Andrea]

I believe you have a medium hetero ebony, a dark hetero ebony and an extra dark hetero ebony however I can't really tell from the photos. It looks like the lighting was a bit dark therefore the chins may be a lighter color phase than they are appearing in the pictures.

 

[Envy]

I agree, the last is for sure an Extra dark, and I would label the first as medium, and the second as a dark, because of the dark face mask and veiling on the back. A lot of breeders go by perspective though, what one person would consider 'dark' another breeder might consider 'medium'.

 

[mishalaa]

*sigh*

I wouldn't call any of them hetero.