Blood sample

[ChilliPepper]

So Chilli has been on Metacam since August. I spoke with the vet about switching him to Tramadol and she didn't think it was a good idea. I expressed that I had heard it could cause kidney problems when used long term, and she suggested we do a blood sample when he is under for his next appt. I read somewhere on here that getting a sample is difficult- is because they are moving, or because of the locations of their blood vessels?
Suggestions?

 

[Parkerspetchins]

My vet said that they take the sample from the chinchilla's arm and that it is difficult to get it, I assumed because it's such a small area but I did not ask her to elaborate since my mind was elsewhere.

 

[mishellyshel]

I had a blood sample taken from my chin, I believe they took it when he was under anethesia for x-rays/tooth filing.
That same chin IS on tramadol, which is recommended for longer term pain management.
If you havent done any research yet, it is a medication prescribed for humans to manage arthritis pain or trigeminal neuralgia. I have to have it made at a special pharmacy that does compounding. His weight when prescribed was 650g (he is more now) and the dosage was .15mg 2 x per day. I have since cut him down to .10 1 or 2 x a day.
you can pm me with any questions.

 

[CerLynn]

My vet said that they take the sample from the chinchilla's arm and that it is difficult to get it, I assumed because it's such a small area but I did not ask her to elaborate since my mind was elsewhere.

She told us that she tried twice on Koko while under anesthesia and couldn't hit the vein (her limit was two tries so she doesn't do much harm), so I think it's just a matter of trying to hit a very small target.

 

[equus_peduus]

The jugular shouldn't be hard - but it's small. The leg veins are harder to hit. It's a lot harder when they're awake, but often possible. Basically requires that the person doing the blood draw is experienced (doesn't *have* to be experienced at chins, necessarily - but they have to be comfortable with hitting small veins) and has a steady hand. Locations are the same as any other small animal.

Metcam has anti-inflammatory properties as well as pain properties, which is its big advantage over Tramadol.

 

[mishellyshel]

[Metcam has anti-inflammatory properties as well as pain properties, which is its big advantage over Tramadol.
/QUOTE]

agreed...........however; Tramadol is being used more often for long term pain and my chin has done very well on it. It is just another option. Especially when metacam doesnt appear to be working. I think for some "conditions" of mouth pain it may be better in the long run. just my opinion based on my experience. In the beginning, I actually used a combination of both, tramadol in the morning & night and metacam in the afternoon. then i dropped the metacam and then lowered the dose of tramadol.

 

[Snickers]

I had a blood samples and x-rays done at the same time while she was awake. I can't tell you where he took the blood samples from.

 

[Aimee & The Chinette's]

I have seen blood taken from the inside of the leg & the jugular. (usually while sedated)

Does the Tramadol have any side effects that you know of???

 

[mishellyshel]

nothing noticable. it is an opiate though. you can type it in your browser and do a little research. that is what i did. it is being used more often in pet care these days as an alternative pain care.

 

[Claire D]

It can affect the liver, kidneys, can have a sedating effect, slows heartbeat, can cause stomach irritation ...........

 

[RDZCRanch]

I have to agree with Claire...I don't think Tramadol is the best pain medication. Metacam is very good for chins and in all honesty, when Metacam no longer works, it's time to contemplate euthanasia. A chinchilla that is in so much pain that the approved pain medication DOES NOT work should be a strong indication of that animal's rising discomfort.

Better a minute too soon than a second too late! It is killing me to see so many people putting their chinchillas through so much pain...why is it so hard to let them go nowadays?

 

[mishellyshel]

It can affect the liver, kidneys, can have a sedating effect, slows heartbeat, can cause stomach irritation ...........

which are basically the same side effects as metacam.

I have to agree with Claire...I don't think Tramadol is the best pain medication. Metacam is very good for chins and in all honesty, when Metacam no longer works, it's time to contemplate euthanasia. A chinchilla that is in so much pain that the approved pain medication DOES NOT work should be a strong indication of that animal's rising discomfort.

Better a minute too soon than a second too late! It is killing me to see so many people putting their chinchillas through so much pain...why is it so hard to let them go nowadays?

it wasnt that metacam wasnt working in my chins case, i was just looking at an alternative for longer term pain management.

my chin that is on tramadol is probably my happiest, most active chin. i have cut his dosage down significantly and he has been doing great.
i see no reason to put him down.........as he does not display any signs of pain. and the day he does will be the day i call my vet.

why is it ok to for humans or dogs or cats to be on long term pain management but not chins? i have taken all the steps to ensure that he is not in pain, does not have root growth and is thriving.........very well. my vet is in line with the treatment plan. i give him lifeline and other supplements to counter act the meds. he is not suffering. right now he is wall surfing in his cage.

 

[RDZCRanch]

For humans...euthanasia is illegal. I don't think it's right for dogs or cats to be on long term pain management either unless it is for something like arthritis.

Not to be rude Michelle...but how do you honestly know that he is not in pain? Because he's active? He's a prey animal...they will hide pain to the best of their ability but this does not mean they don't feel pain. You have to judge the pain off of what is physically going on with the animal. Constantly having teeth filed, being poked and prodded and having multiple medications forced into you...it's not a pleasant existence. I'm not telling you to run out and do PTS, but it's something that people neglect in favor of prolonging life no matter how bad the quality of that life is. People are under the mistaken impression that life, no matter how bad, is still living and should be fought for at all costs.

 

[mishellyshel]

your not being rude. i take it all in stride.

your right, i dont know he is in pain, wish he could talk! but when he was in pain he was grinding his teeth and drooling and is no longer doing that. he hasnt had his teeth done since early august.

and i agree, if my chin had to have his teeth ground every month or so than no i wouldnt put him thru that. but according to the "specialized" vet he had uneven tooth wear causing his jaw to be misaligned. maybe she was an idiot and didnt know what she was talking about. i did post his x-rays here and it does not appear he has root elongation.
his first and current vet (she didnt do the xrays) is wonderful and agrees that he is doing well on the treatment plan.........so I am sticking with it until it no longer works.

btw.......they should legalize euthanasia for humans...........i can think of a few people that should be PTS.

 

[Claire D]

which are basically the same side effects as metacam.

This is like saying Morphine has similar side effects to paracetamol.

I was not making any comment but was merely answering Aimee's question since you were not specific in your response.

my chin that is on tramadol is probably my happiest, most active chin. i have cut his dosage down significantly and he has been doing great.
i see no reason to put him down.........as he does not display any signs of pain. and the day he does will be the day i call my vet.

why is it ok to for humans or dogs or cats to be on long term pain management b ut not chins? i have taken all the steps to ensure that he is not in pain, does not have root growth and is thriving.........very well. my vet is in line with the treatment plan. i give him lifeline and other supplements to counter act the meds. he is not suffering. right now he is wall surfing in his cage.

This is way off the original topic but fwiw I would not keep a chinchilla on Tramadol long term regardless of the disease process. I think once you've gone beyond Metacam for pain relief then you're looking at the drugging a chinchilla for your own personal benefit, not theirs. If the animal is in too much pain for Metacam to control then it's time to stop.


If your chin has not had any dental work since August then why does he still need Tramadol? He must be in a considerable amount of pain to require it, regardless of his apparent behaviour. Just because he is wall surfing does not mean he is not feeling pain or discomfort.


We know little or nothing about chinchillas in terms of how they react to medication. Unless blood tests are taken regularly (& these can be inaccurate due to stress, pain, anaesthetic etc) then we're experimenting. Chinchillas hide pain incredibly well - to their detriment - by the time one sees a chin displaying signs of pain it is often too late.

As I have said before (& will, no doubt, say again) just because we can does not mean we should.

 

[RDZCRanch]

Why is he on long term pain medication? If the teeth are growing fine to the point that he hasn't needed a filing since August...he shouldn't need pain meds. If he needs them because the roots are elongated...he has to be in a lot of pain. Root elongation is slow but the teeth are growing into the skull and through the jaw. Whether they show pain when root elongation is happening they are in pain.

One last thing, even on pain medication an animal will feel pain. They cannot be doped up 24/7...there is always a point where the medicine begins to wear off between doses and the pain IS felt. Just adding that in as general knowledge.

 

[Claire D]

but according to the "specialized" vet he had uneven tooth wear causing his jaw to be misaligned. maybe she was an idiot and didnt know what she was talking about. i did post his x-rays here and it does not appear he has root elongation.

Misaligned jaw = malocclusion
A misaligned jaw will cause the teeth to wear unevenly.

Do you mean the x-rays on this thread? http://chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5360
There's a normal chinchilla xray here for comparison.

 

[Sugarmama]

but according to the "specialized" vet he had uneven tooth wear causing his jaw to be misaligned. maybe she was an idiot and didnt know what she was talking about. i did post his x-rays here and it does not appear he has root elongation.

I have a question here. I have no experience with malo, I'm just trying to understand something.

Is the vet saying that the uneven tooth wear is causing the jaw to be misaligned? This seems backwards to me. I would think that a misaligned jaw would cause the uneven tooth wear.

 

[mishellyshel]

his x rays are here:

http://chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5360&highlight=richie+back

tabitha--i have slowing been weaning him off the tramadol. since it is an addictive opiate that is what i was told to do. i guess i could try him off it comepletely and see how he is and if he is in pain then i guess it is time to let him go.

claire--i know that he has malo, but this is the same vet who told me and i quote "do you want this chin or a chin" meaning with constant filings and longterm care he would have a quality of life. maybe she was blowing smoke where the sun dont shine. all i know is she was expensive and claimed to be an exotic specialist. his regular vet has examined the xrays and didnt feel he had root elongation. and because the xray isnt close it is hard to see. maybe you can take a look and see if you see anything.

i dont want to hijack this thread about blood sample. so please feel free to PM me. i do appreciate everyone's advice and comments.

 

[Claire D]

I think it is very easy to see that his Xrays are nothing like the "normal" one on the 2nd link I posted.

You seem convinced that your vet & the exotic specialist are right - I am not going to say whether I think they are or not because I am not a vet however if you look closely at his xrays you will see for yourself.