watery eye, vet today-terrified

[fluke]

I've posted many times on here about my boy Buckie. He is about 6 years old now. He had a load of health problems when he was young, but since then we've been pretty good. A few years ago I took him to a vet a few hours away. Dental xrays were done and showed points on the sides of his molars. They were filed down no problem. Did not show any elongation. It's been about a year and a half since I've taken him. Since he has such a prominent heart murmur, my vet suggested only bringing him in for possible filings if I noticed any symptoms like before (he doesnt want to put him under if it's not necessary). Well, about two months ago his eye was a little watery, or rather the fur around his eye seemed wet. The next day it was fine. I kinda just thought maybe since I had the window open, something from outside irritated his eye. But either way I started weighing him every day. No weight changes.

Saturday I noticed his eye wet again. I flushed it with some saline to get out anything that might have irritated it. Sunday morning, watery again and this time he was squinting. So I made an appt for today. I am absolutely terrified about root elongation. .I know it's a losing battle, but I would have to try someting if that's whats going on. I read alot of the things Dawn has tried and the lack of success. But I still have to ask, how would one reproduce the natural diet of a chin? I know it'd be a long shot, but I read another post about how it really slowed the progression of the elongation. If thats possible, I'm going to try it. ****, might try it even if people don't think it's possible.

also, about tooth extraction....how do u keep it clean afterwards? Like i can imagine food and stuff getting stuck in the socket and causing infection. I mean, when people have wisdom teeth removed they give u a little syringe to rinse out the socket to prevent that...

never thought i'd be hoping and praying for an eye infection.
another part that scares me is there isn't any redness around the eye that would indicate irritation or infection. <=(

 

[ticklechin]

To answer the tooth extraction question-its almost impossible to remove elongated teeth without damage to the upper and lower jaws, and even if the vet is lucky and they do come out, the depth of the socket left behind is a breeding ground for infection-extraction of teeth without them being loose is most often a death sentance. I have had selective tooth removal of maloccluded teeth that were not elongated, the remaining teeth maloccluded in under 6 months. The only way selective tooth removal will work is if its not selective-all teeth go including incisors-not a good psychological option for the chinchilla, since that is what they do-chew.

Photo one-elongation of the jaw teeth-not much jaw will be left one that tooth is removed.

Elongation of the upper teeth-not much of the eye socket will be left with those uppers removed.

To answer the question of slowing down elongation-if the chinchilla has malocclusion also forget it, malo chins don't chew enough due to the pain, regardless of what you give them. There have been no studies to prove that diet change can slow
down elongation-its all he said/she said intenet blather, diet change can expand the time between filings of lazy chewers-chins that have clinically straight teeth and no elongation.

I am sorry you are going through this, but I can say I have tried it all, spent upwards of 20k on malo chins over 10 years, almost 10k on one chin, it will not be cured, there is no amount of money, no diet, no treatment, nothing that works, as long as the chin has teeth, it will have malo and elongation.

 

[ticklechin]

I actually mis-spoke in my sentance, (at work on the phone on hold and trying to hurry) "There have been no studies to prove that diet change can slow down elongation-its all he said/she said intenet blather" I meant to say that there are no studies that diet change can reverse elongation and that its all internet blather. Once the damage is done and the teeth elongate there is nothing you can do to reverse it, On my 10k chin I was able to arrest the elongation at moderate -meaning it did not elongate after the chin was a year and a half old. X-rays were taken every 6 months until he was PTS at 4. I won't go into what I put him through to achieve that, since hindsight tells me I was wrong to do what I did, he died anyway.

 

[fluke]

geez...it's so awful that this is such a common problem. it's just heartbreaking to even think about.

just retrned from the vet. not good news but not worst case scenario. the watery eye is being caused by an infection in/around one of his teeth, the furthest one back actually. you can clearly see the pocket of fluid ie. pus around the tooth in the xrays. the infection and the swelling is putting pressure on the sinuses..hence watery eye. the tooth is also growing funny. makes me wonder which came first..i dunno if its possible he's had a small infection for a while now but anyway. the roots don't seem elongated. that one tooth tho could cause problems. the vet said the tooth is a little loose. he tried pulling it today but my boy had already been sedated for alittle while and with his extreme heart murmur, he didnt want to keep him that way much longer. I got baytril, neomycin eye drops, and an anti-inflammatory. and i have an appt in two weeks to remove the tooth.

after reading the response about tooth extraction, i'm just as worried as i was before. and...how is the matching tooth on the bottom going to be worn down now? will i jst have to take him in often to get it filed? i mean i can do that. but yea..the socket thats left....

so it doesnt sound like i should be very relieved here then?

 

[fluke]

he also mentioned that ther is some scalloping on the lower jaw. didnt neceesarily look like the roots were pushing thru tho. he said it was just something to keep an eye on. bad sign?

 

[fluke]

when is it time to start hand feeding? we left the vet around 5:30. its now nearly midnight and buckie still hasn't eaten at all. vet said his mouth would probably be hurting and he was still groggy..still kinda is, but im scared to wait til morning. so when does one know when its time to force feed?

 

[ticklechin]

If the tooth is loose, the vet may have a chance of getting it out without damage, but you are correct-the adjacent tooth and opposing tooth will try to fill in the missing space and the chin will need to be filed more often-not a good thing for a chin with a murmur big enough for a vet to worry about. To address the heart issue and malo chins-watch for symptoms of congestive heart failure-blueing of the lips, chin getting tired easy, unexpected weight gain, chin looking like a balloon and deep breathing like the chin just ran a marathon.

The aftermath of the extraction may entail long term antibiotic use-I personally do not use baytril alone for oral infections, especially infections in sockets, I use it with flagyl.


Hand feeding will be in your future for awhile after the extraction and now until then, feed the chin at least 60ml of CC a day, 4 15ml feedings and weigh the chin daily, up the amount it the chin is loosing weight-don't be suprised if the chin needs over 100ml a day.


The scalloping is what the vet is feeling in the first pitcure-its the tooth roots probing the lower jaw trying to push outward. When this happens the teeth will breach, potentially breaking the jaw bone.


I hate to say the outcome of this is poor, malo chins and heart murmurs don't mix well-I have had two, one was PTS when he went into congestive heart failure a couple of days after a filing-he had a class 5, and the other threw a clot while under and died a couple of days later, he had a class 3.

 

[fluke]

......can't lose my little boy.

are u sure the slight scalloping has to be that? his jaw has never felt smooth to me. I've had him for over 5 years. And yes his heart murmur is bad, but he's never acted strangely at all. never blue lips, yea he gets heavy breathing but usually after he really has just pinballed around the room for a while....

..still hadnt eaten this morning. I started CC last night. Fed him a bit this morning. Don't think i fed him 15ml though. The bag says 3tbsp per kg a day, is that equivalent to what you're suggesting? just wondering if i need to adjust the portions.

how come u use flagyl with baytril, do u just find that baytril is not strong enough?

 

[fluke]

also, his weight has been stable for like 4 years. i weigh him at home too but yesterday at the vet, his weight was the same to the gram of what it was like a year and a half ago. that was actually really surprising since it does fluctuate thruoughout the day, but i just mean...he's had no signs of heart problems. <=(

just want him to be ok

 

[ticklechin]

Baytril is generally all right with aerobic gram negative and gram positive bacteria, its shows minimal efficiancy against anaerobic bacteria. Flagyl has good efficiency against anaerobic bacteria-this is what is found in dental infections in most cases. I use both since A: URIs are common for abscess chins to get hence the baytril and B: Using combination of Baytril and Flagyl helps to broaden the spectrum when the specific bacterium is not readily known, either anerobic or anaerobic, gram pos or neg. Its common practice in rabbits for vets to RX both for dental abscesses.


The package of CC is meant as a guide for many animals, the amounts don't work for chinchillas.

 

[fluke]

ok. well thanks for letting me know how much to feed. i really had no idea. he's never not eaten before. I have a feeling that one tooth has been hurting lately but he was still eating like always. But I can just make however much critical care and use the syringe to measure....Man I'm gonna need alot more. If I run out before I can get more, would crushing his food and makng a paste with that work in the mean time?

I will definitely ask my vet about the flagyl too. you think I should wait til the tooth extraction or ask now for the additional antibiotic? If baytril isn't going to help, I don't want him to be waiting 2 weeks ya know?

 

[ticklechin]

You can make ghetto critical care by soaking the pellets in warm water, walk away for awhile and then add more water until its a paste, add something like molasses for flavor.

The tooth has to go to treat the abscess, its the source of the infection. Antibiotics right now are just keeping the infection in check, not getting rid of it.

 

[fluke]

yea..that was the thought i had too. i just well i just want to make sure the infection is indeed kept in check. so ok, perhaps he is planning to give the other antibiotics too after the extraction. if not, ill ask.

i'm so scared for him. He's definitely a fighter but still so worried.

Thank you Dawn for all of your help and information. I really appreciate it. You're like the one person on here that everyone knows and trusts for all things chinnie.

 

[ticklechin]

I don't know all things chinnie, no one does or ever will because these little creatures will come up with some new problem it always seems......

 

[fluke]

well true, but you know more than most.

 

[ticklechin]

Thank you for the kind words.

 

[fluke]

got home a little while ago. still hasnt eaten. fed him a little over 15ml of CC. which ws not easy. he just isnt hungry. he chewed on his little house for a second so not sure it's an issue of his teeth hurting. sigh. he's still sleepy. but then tried to give him some water in a syringe..ended up choking him. <=( i didnt mean to, i just want to make sure he is getting enough water too. i know he gets some from the food, but is it enough? he doesnt seem to be drinking out of his bottle. i drew a line on it last night so i could measure his intake. no change.

he is prescribed metacam. 0.04cc once daily. today i thought i'd split it into two doses, once every like 12 hours. is that advisable? don't want it to like wear off and have him in pain.

i dunno what id do if i lost my little man. tried to get insurance for him today..but they would exclude any dental issues because he's had some issues in the past. so kinda pointless. im a lowly broke grad student, but **** if it means less food for me or selling some things or getting another job, im gonna do everything i can for him. just wish it was easier. wish there was just more knowledge on how to treat them and ..well wish chins weren't as delicate as they are. wish i could do more for him or more could be done.

theres not surgery to fix a heart murmur is there?

 

[ticklechin]

If you are giving the CC in a mixture that is like a milkshake he is getting enough water from that, syringe feeding water can be hazardous since the chin can inhale and aspirate the water, another bad issue when there is active infection in the mouth that can transfer to the lungs. I give metecam twice a day, its what my vet prescribes so that is fine.

There is no surgery for the heart and I feel for you so much for your situation, you have to hope for the best and expect the worst, I don't know any other way to put it, I have been in your shoes more times that I want to say but sometimes you just have to do what is right for the chin if it gets worse, just keep that at the back of your mind, love him for now, keep him fed and comfortable with the pain meds and take it day by day. Hugs to you, one malo mom to another.

 

[fluke]

thanks dawn. ....
yea my philosophy for most things is hope for the best, expect the worst so..i am...the worst can be hard to accept though. but, the last thing i want to do is put him through more pain than it's worth. it'd probably be the most difficult decision of my life but...if he won't be happy...if he'll suffer and theres no way to change it...i'll do the right thing for him.

and yea...no more water by syringe. actually used to work in a petstore in the pet care dept. a few months after i started we had a tiny hamster that had diarhea so bad that he was insanely dehydrated. couldnt eat. couldnt drink. was...barely alive frankly. and i tried to give hi just a little water...and i killed him. i mean...the only way i felt even remotely better about it was knwing, there is no way he was going to recover anyway...he was too weak to even swallow...so should have known better..i just worry...

but i didnt think about the infection spreading...thats another reason to definitely not try that again.

and the CC is a little thikcer than i would consider a milkshake. its like a paste sorta. is that too thick you think?

 

[ticklechin]

I like it a little thinner than a paste, not quite as runny as a milkshake.