Sick, got better, now sick again...what's going on?

[peachydays]

I know this is SUPER long, so thank you so much in advance for slogging through it! Max and I both appreciate it.

I have a bit of a puzzling situation with Max, and I hope you can help me out. Before reading, keep in mind that there have been no environmental changes for him, and he is on a very strict diet of Oxbow pellets and a mixture of APD timmy and mountain grass hay. He occasionally gets a treat of Tanya's (Fuzzies Kingdom) supplement. He lives in a QC Townhome and only has chin safe wood toys. He is 6.5 years old. I have another chin (Giggy), who has not had any issues over the past several weeks and has the same set up as Max (they are caged separately).


August 9th
I was cleaning cages around 11 pm on August 9th, and I noticed that Max had some SUPER small poos in his cage and that he was acting somewhat lethargic. I felt his tummy, and he was definitely gassy (his tummy felt doughy). So I gave him some infant gas drops, handfed him some Critical Care mixed with a 30 billion count probiotic, and did a warm tummy compress and massage. I also called the vet and made an appointment for the next morning in case he didn't improve overnight.

August 10th
I woke up around 6am on the 10th, and Max had basically stopped pooing, and was still not his usual self. He hadn't eaten anything overnight. I took him in for the 8.30 am appointment I had made the night before. The vet did an oral exam and also X-rays of his mouth, and didn't see anything wrong there. His temperature was lower than it should have been so she suggested he stay with them until Sunday evening so he could be in the incubator and they could monitor him closely. She also said that they would try to draw blood to see if there was a kidney or liver issue. Not having an incubator at home (I know, what kind of chin owner am I?) I decided the best place for him at that point was the vet's.

August 11th
I went to pick him up on the evening of the 11th, and he had done great (of course I had driven them crazy by calling every few hours to check on him - they are a 24 hr vet). He was starting to poo again (although they were small), was more active, and was showing interest in his pellets and hay. They did tell me they hadn't been successful in drawing blood, which didn't surprise me give how hard it is to find a vein on chins.

Because they weren't sure what was going on with him, they sent me home with Metacam, Baytril, and Reglan. They also gave me Benebac which I didn't use because the 30 billion count probiotic I have is better. This is what his dosage amounts were:

Metacam: .1 mL every other day (there were 3 doses, which he received Monday, Wednesday, and Friday morning of that week)

Reglan: .5 mL every 12 hours

Baytril: .05 mL orally once per day, for 10 days. I know I will raise some eyebrows for giving him the oral Baytril instead of the injectable. My reasoning was that I was already going to have to handfeed him, and he had also been prescribed the Reglan which would help his gut keep moving. I've administered injectable Baytril before (as well as subcu fluids), so it wasn't squeamishness on my part that fueled my decision.

When I brought him home I decided to keep him in a one level SuperPet cage that I have, since I thought perhaps he might have injured himself in some undetectable way in the QC Townhome. I didn't want him trying to jump around or running on his wheel (a Flying Saucer).

August 12th - 15th
I gave Max his meds on the dosage schedule outlined above, and handfed him 20mL of CC mixed with the 30 billion count probiotic 3x per day.

August 16th
The morning of August 16th I noticed that Max's poos were alarmingly large and he had eaten some pellets. I figured the large poo was because his gut was overstimulated from the Reglan so I didn't give him the dose that morning. Since he had eaten some on his own I gave him 10mL of Critical Care instead of 20.

When I got home from work in the evening, Max had eaten more on his own during the day and his poo was back to normal size.

August 17th - 21st
Max was basically back to normal, except that he was still on the Baytril every morning. Because it was oral, I would give him the Baytril, then follow it immediately with a "chaser" of 10mL of CC. He continued to eat on his own other than that.

August 22nd - 26th
Everything was normal: he was eating, drinking, playing, pooing. I kept Max in the SuperPet cage because I was convinced that he had injured himself in the QC Townhome. I was planning on buying the QC Condo for him so he could have his wheel (it doesn't fit in the SuperPet cage nor is it sturdy enough to support the wheel).

August 27th
Yesterday evening I noticed that his poos were small again. I felt his tummy, and sure enough he was gassy. The same exact symptoms he had the night of August 9th. I gave him infant gas drops, and handfed him 20mL of CC and probiotic.

August 28th
This morning he had done lots of poos overnight, but they were still small. I also noticed he hadn't eaten overnight (I weighed his food bowl). So, I gave him the infant gas drops (his tummy wasn't doughy anymore, but i figured it couldn't hurt) and 20mL of the CC/probiotic mixture.

When I got home from work (around 6.45) he done a few poos during the day but they were small. He had eaten though! About 5 grams of pellets. I decided to give him another 20mL of the CC/probiotic mixture since his poos were still small.

As of right now (about 8.30) his poos are looking much more normal size wise but color wise they're more of a lighter brown. I think the CC is making its way through his system.
_____________________________________________

Soooo what could be going on? I feel like the first question that needs to be answered is: Is he getting gassy and then stopping eating? Or is he stopping eating and then getting gassy? And for either of those scenarios, WHY? I'm now questioning whether he actually injured himself like I thought he might have, since the same symptoms have reappeared and there's just no way he could have injured himself in the one story SuperPet cage (there's nowhere to jump).

I don't want to run him back to the vet just yet. But if he doesn't start eating on his own again and pooing normally within a few days I will have to. Is there anything I should specifically ask the vet to check out if I do have to take him back?

Thank you again for taking the time to read all of this, and for your feedback!

 

[Basket_of_Chinchillas]

Others will have more informed opinions on this than I do, but I would suspect that there might be something causing a blockage or partial obstruction in his gut which an x-ray of his gut would reveal. I would continue with the gas drops since it won't really hurt him to keep him on them and I would also keep feeding CC if he isn't eating. If things don't improve soon I would go back to the vet requesting gut x-rays to make sure their isn't a blockage.

Have you been weighing him? When you feed him CC does that lead to pooing? Is he eating anything on his own right now? If he is not eating anything I would up the amount of CC you are feeding him so that he doesn't lose weight (or lose any more if he already has) and get him to the vet again asap.

Is your vet experienced with chins? If not very familiar can they refer you to one who is?

It also does not sound very likely that he had injured himself, what led you to think that he had? Was he limping? Walking funny? Something else?

 

[Claire D]

Poor little fella.

I would be tempted to have a faecal sample checked for giardia - that can make the digestive system fluctuate like you are describing.

In the meantime I would keep treating his symptoms.

 

[ticklechin]

I second the chin needs a x-ray of the gut, gut issues in chins are the worst thing you can deal with, makes teeth look like a walk in the park. Gut issues are unpredictable in nature and duration, it can drag on for weeks. But without the x-ray you are not sure what you are dealing with.

 

[peachydays]

Thanks, all! I've made a vet appointment for him for Saturday at 10.30 am, and let them know I would like a gut x-ray done. In the meantime, I'll continue to treat his symptoms.

This morning I saw he had eaten last night, and his poo looked great. I still handfed him 10mL of CC/probiotic just to be on the safe side.

Basket of Chinchillas - After I gave him the CC, his poos went back to normal. I thought he might have hurt himself because I remembered that over the past few weeks, there were several times when I would hear one of them jump into their cage pan and then I would hear a squeal. I would go down and check on both of them right away, but neither of them showed any signs of distress at all (limping included). After what happened with Max, I figured that it might have been him who was squealing. But like I said, I'm really doubting that he hurt himself because the symptoms have reappeared even though he's been in the one level cage.

Claire - I forgot to mention that they did test a fecal sample when I took him in the 10th, and they didn't find anything wrong. I might ask them to do another one when I take him this Saturday.

Dawn - I almost think I would rather deal with the gut issues, than teeth issues! I feel like with the teeth issues, it's just a matter of time before the filings stop working whereas if it's a gut issue there's at least something I can do to get their gut back to 100% health, even if it takes weeks. That said, I've never had to deal with teeth issues in the long term so I don't have an accurate point of reference.

 

[ticklechin]

What I meant about teeth over guts is teeth are predictable, chin will eventually be put down but with guts, you can have a heathy chin and with no warning it gets stasis and dies, no matter how you fight it.

 

[peachydays]

What I meant about teeth over guts is teeth are predictable, chin will eventually be put down but with guts, you can have a heathy chin and with no warning it gets stasis and dies, no matter how you fight it.

Well ok then. I can definitely see how teeth issues would be a walk in the park compared to gut. Actually, Max's small/no poo did come on with no warning. Like I said in my first post there hadn't been any environmental changes at all, everything was status quo and then all of a sudden he was going downhill.

What exactly causes stasis? And what is the difference between stasis, bloat, and gas? Does gas lead to bloat and stasis? Or can they each just happen on their own?

 

[ticklechin]

A chins intestine can become static (stasis) for a variety of reasons, including pain from a underying issue, dehydration, stress, an intestinal blockage or insufficient dietary crude fiber. Left untreated, the slowdown or complete cessation of normal intestinal contractions can result in a painful death, in a relatively short period of time.

Bloat is a abnormal accumulation of gas in the gut. When the build up comes to a certain point it irreversible. The gut can expand to more than twice its normal size, thi impedes on the blood vessels to the heart and some other organs, which causes organ failure and death. What causes bloat is not always known, its what is scarey about it.


You can have bloat cause stasis, stasis can cause bloat, you can have one without the other.

 

[Sandi]

Shayna, glad you got some good input.... I will keep Max in my thoughts until he is 100% well.

 

[peachydays]

Thanks for the information, Dawn!

Sandi - Thank you so much. :heart5:

When I got home today, Max had eaten a good/normal amount during the day, but not pood. I went to make some CC for him and when I got back to his cage, he had done one nice looking poo (this was around 7). I gave him the CC, and now he is pooing. I was holding him for a few minutes after his feeding, and he did a lot of nice looking poos. When I put him back in his cage, the poos slowed down. So I'm holding him in my lap to encourage the pooing. Now there's something new: all of the poos he's done this evening smell funny. Isn't this a symptom of giardia?

 

[ticklechin]

Smelly poo usually mean some sort of infection , bacterial or parasistic. If its bacterial it could be either a primary infection meaning it caused the issue of bloat or secondary meaning it came about because of the bloat.

 

[peachydays]

Ok, then I will definitely be asking them to do a fecal tomorrow. What drugs should I be expecting to be sent home with, if there is indeed an infection?

This morning I saw that Max had eaten on his own last night and done lots of great looking poos. I didn't notice a smell, but I think it might have been because they weren't as fresh. Since he had eaten a normal amount of both pellets and hay on his own, I decided not to do a feeding this morning. I don't want him to get too used to it. Even though I still have to burrito him to feed him, I just have a sense that he enjoys it. I don't THINK chinchillas are capable of that level of reasoning ("I like being handfed CC, therefore I will not eat my pellets and hay and wait to be handfed."), but if he's eating well on his own he doesn't need to be handfed anyway.

 

[ticklechin]

You better believe those suckers can become addicted to hand feeding, some chins will hold out for the good stuff and refuse to eat-weaning that group is tough.

As far as the meds, it depends if the vet finds bacteria or parasites as to what is used. Flagyl, cipro, albon, something sulfa based such as trimethsulfa, bacterim, albendozal are popular choices.

 

[peachydays]

Update: Max's fecal results came back today and he has giardia. When I go to the vet to pick up Max's meds, I'll be taking a sample of Giggy's poo to be tested, since although they're in separate parts of the house right now, they weren't before Max initially got sick, and were close enough to fling poo into each others cages.

Max has done well the past several days. Still has smelly poo, but he's eating on his own.

 

[Newt]

Really glad to hear he's doing better. Here's hoping he gets well quickly xxxx

 

[peachydays]

I got the results of Giggy's fecal back (I wasn't able to drop it off until this past Saturday), and he also has giardia!

The vet wants to prescribe panacur for him as well, but is this neccessary since he hasn't shown any symptoms at all? I thought I read something on the forum about how they can develop resistance to the medicine if it's given when they don't need it. Is having the infection but not showing symptoms an instance of "not needing" the treatment? Are there varying degrees of severity when it comes to giardia and do some chins need to be treated for it when they show symptoms and some are ok not being treated if they don't show symptoms? I just don't want to give him the meds if it means the giardia might come back in fuller force later.

ETA - Thank you, Amanda (I think I'm remembering your name correctly from years ago!) for your well wishes!

 

[Cinder and Me]

I'm so glad you found the issue!

And I really applaud you for your dedication and love towards your furkids. :clap1: I've only been in a similar situation with one of our dachshunds (peach pit obstruction in his lower intestines) so I know how gut wrenching it is to see their health deteriorate and no one has any idea to what's going on. Persistence pays off!! :thumbsup:

Hope he has a quick recovery!

ETA: Any idea where they got giardia from? Do you use filtered water or tap?

 

[Newt]

Wow you have a great memory! You're right, my name is Amanda!

I was away from the board for such a long time, that my account was deleted, but I found my way back eventually!

Hope your babies kick the giardia quickly xxxx

 

[tunes]

If he is testing positive for giardia, then yes, I would treat him. If he didn't need the medication, he would have tested negative. If you've got giardia in one, you would have to be worried about it transmitting to the other one constantly. By treating them both, hopefully it will knock it out.

Giardia can return now in times of stress, so it is something you will have to watch for and possibly deal with again. Shayna, do you use reverse osmosis water? If not, I would start using it. You also need to wash all the bedding in hot water. If you can afford new houses, I would buy new. If you can't, are you still having pretty warm weather? If you are, I would fill the sink downstairs with hot/boiling water and a bit of bleach and soak the houses and ledges down really well, let them sit in there for a bit, then take them out and lay them on a tarp or blanket in the hottest sun you can. You can also bake them, but the sun is really good at killing off the nasties.

 

[peachydays]

Thanks, Peggy!

I will start his treatment. I was thinking of taking all the wood out of his cage during treatment, and then replacing it with new stuff when it's over. He'll be mad, but MAMA KNOWS BEST. When I wash their bedding, I usually wash it twice (always in hot water) - once with "free and clear" detergent and baking soda, then again with just vinegar.

I do use reverse osmosis water - I am actually wondering if Max caught the giardia when he stayed overnight at the vet, because I doubt they gave him reverse osmosis water.

He was there on August 10th-11th and the giardia symptoms showed up on August 27th. I'm really thinking that he originally stopped eating because of some slight unseen injury (I haven't heard the squealing since he's been in the one level cage), then caught giardia at the vet. Meanwhile, I wasn't as careful as I should have been while Max was carrying it but not showing symptoms, and passed it to Giggy. I was going to treat Giggy anyway on your advice, but typing that out makes me see that Giggy could start showing symptoms any day now and he DEFINITELY needs to be treated!

Thanks again to all for your advice and support.