question about ebony genetics

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Narcissus

Narcissus

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
510
Location
idaho
I absolutly love genetics, it fascinates me. I understand that when breeding mutations most breeders breed back to a good quality standard chin (either every other generation or every couple generations) because mutations tend to be weak and need the standard genes to maintian quality in the kits. But, also in my readings here at CnH, ive come to understand that the ebony gene(s) is completely different then the other mutations. so my question is for those who breed ebonys do you also breed to a standard every other/every couple generations? if so, any standard kits from those breedings, if kept would you put them back into an ebony line since they carry the ebony gene(s)? also, when breeding for extra dark and dark ebonys, does breeding back to a standard slow down the goal of reaching an extra dark or dark ebony kit? I understand moat of the genetics, but ebony still confuses me a little. Thank you for indulging my addiction to genetics!
 
To start with the ebony gene is not as straight forward as other mutations. Breeding extra dark to extra dark will not always give you x dark offspring. Sometimes you can even get almost standard appearing kits out of them. I use standards with my eb lines and the good offspring go back into my eb lines with the others going to the pet market.
 
Thank you, jags. my I ask, do you bring in a standard every other generation, every couple, do you have a specif pattern?
 
As I do not breed ebony extensively, and have never, so I cannot comment from experience I CAN say what I have heard from other breeders and at shows. There are many ebony breeders that breed ebony to ebony to ebony for MANY MANY generations without losing quality. Maybe one of our resident ebony breeders will comment here? I personally have two ebony females, they're both paired with a res.sec.champ ebony white male. I also have him paired with two medium phase standards in the hopes of reasonable white e/c. I have his mother, an ebony white. She's also paired with a standard, an extra dark. I do not pair my animals solely on color, though can say ebonies aside everyone is paired up with a standard gray ;) But that's NOT my deciding factor. I pair chinchillas based moreso on their traits, their strenghts and weaknesses. I pair them on their pedigree, and known ancestry. But like JAGS said, ebony is funny. My ebony white female, who's mostly white with some black dustings...produced a single kit her last litter. An extra dark ebony male. She was paired with a standard gray and even knowing a LITTLE how ebony works, I was still a bit surprised to find such a dark kit under her!
 
Swome line throw darker ebony than others. I have a extra dark ebony male who when paired with a beige (no ebony in lines) gave me a extra dark kit, and out of his standard female gave a med eb kit. Out of a total of 8 kits all have been med or darker. I also have another ebony male who paired up has only given lights or st ec kits.
 
I was recently informed that there is no such thing as an "ebony carrier". It is a veeery common misconception and something I just recently learned. It either expresses itself or it doesn't. That doesn't mean that a chin from that line won't have a "dirty belly" so you still want to keep chins from eb lines in an eb line. Some of the nicest ebs I have seen come from dark standard to eb pairings. I also learned that the ebony gene is considered "cumulative" meaning that chins generally get somewhat darker with each consecutive generation. At the same time I also learned that you will get a better eb as an end result by pairing a lighter eb (or standard) to a darker one.

One thing I still don't fully understand though is how the the reddish tint is caused that can be a serious fault in ebs. I have heard that "mahogany" can be mixed in and also oxidation. I was at a show once where the entire class of ebs was given a 2nd for reddish tint. It put the fear of reddish tint with ebs in me and I was wondering if anyone has any more advice or info on that one....
 
I was recently informed that there is no such thing as an "ebony carrier".
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Some misinformation there, many ranchers will tell you about that time when the ebony first popped up and everyone used it to darken their standard's backs.... and some of the real old guys STILL have random light-dark ebonies popping up from time to time. Some of these are 15-20 generations out. I also get a lot of standard or beige looking animals that will throw ebony if bred to another standard or beige. It can definitely be carried and not expressed.

so my question is for those who breed ebonys do you also breed to a standard every other/every couple generations?
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No. I have some ebonies that go back as far as I have a pedigree (15+ generations) It really depends on the quality of your stock. I pair animals to complement traits with a specific color goal in mind. Traits are still first, color second.

if so, any standard kits from those breedings, if kept would you put them back into an ebony line since they carry the ebony gene(s)?
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No, I put them with whomever they compliment the most. If I get an ebony three generations out I'm pleasantly surprised and put it in one of the ebony runs. :))

also, when breeding for extra dark and dark ebonys, does breeding back to a standard slow down the goal of reaching an extra dark or dark ebony kit?
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No, but my goal isn't extra dark ebonies either. They are a byproduct of tan whites.

It put the fear of reddish tint with ebs in me and I was wondering if anyone has any more advice or info on that one....
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Yup, don't breed ebs to xdark standards as they have always have a darker red tip than a standard with no veiling. That is why many of the best ebonies come out of whites. Red can't hide in a white.

I have a mixed herd and I don't pelt so it does not matter to me what color the belly is. I just mark a note on the card and put the animal in a different line if it is a standard and throws ebony kits every litter. If I go to show and it has a white belly it goes into the standards, dark and it goes into the wraps. :))
 
I have bred hundreds of ebs over the years some with great results and others not so great. I have no specific pattern, it is based only on my goal to improve the animals in the colors I am working on as to when I add a standard, white, beige, violet or black to them.

As far as ebony not being carried I will have to strongly agree to disagree with that person. I have had pure snow white animals out of animals that came from eb lines many generations back that have thrown x dark ebs when the white was paired with a standard with no eb in the background.

I will not just use an animal from eb lines no matter how nice of a belly it has with my top standard lines. It is just to hard to get and keep good white bellies in animals to take the chance of it coming back to haunt me latter, and it will sooner or later!

As far as red goes, its never good in any animal. While it can hide better in xdark standards, especially with a longer tip, any color phase animal can be red and I have seen some very red light animals.

Go to shows and seminars and learn not only what to look for, but what it looks like! Traits can be talked about and researched forever online, until you see it on the show table you will not know what you are looking at.
 
are there different types of ebony genes? I know with beige and white there are different types (ressecive white, tower beige, sullivan beige) has anyone found a difference in ebony? ive read some lines of ebony get darker, some get lighter.... and do forth. does any one know the specifics?
 
Rhonda- without having the time right at the moment to read everything, not sure where you're getting your information but I'm on the "totally disagree" bandwagon. So you pair two ebonies, have a standard looking kit and that means it's a standard? No way and bs. The way ebony works, I lable EVERYTHING out of an ebony as a carrier. There are too many genes in current ebonies to predict which lines will work which ways. And even if you knew how a specific line originally worked, so many ebony lines have been muddied into each other that it probably wouldn't matter anyhow. SO, not sure where you're getting your expert knowledge...but MOST will disagree with them on that one.

ETA- also going to disagree (not entirely but a bit) on the generations of darker to darker to produce the darkest. Just not entirely true. As mentioned, you can get an extra dark ebony in one generation and an extra light in the third. Ebony is really about as controllable as mosaics sometimes!
 
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Thanks for clearing up the misconception everyone. When I heard this it made me re-think several pairings I had planned. I have several chins listed as being e/c on my site so at least things can stay the way they were and glad to know the info you all gave. THANKS!
 
Vyxxin said:
Rhonda- without having the time right at the moment to read everything, not sure where you're getting your information but I'm on the "totally disagree" bandwagon. So you pair two ebonies, have a standard looking kit and that means it's a standard? No way and bs. The way ebony works, I lable EVERYTHING out of an ebony as a carrier. There are too many genes in current ebonies to predict which lines will work which ways. And even if you knew how a specific line originally worked, so many ebony lines have been muddied into each other that it probably wouldn't matter anyhow. SO, not sure where you're getting your expert knowledge...but MOST will disagree with them on that one.

ETA- also going to disagree (not entirely but a bit) on the generations of darker to darker to produce the darkest. Just not entirely true. As mentioned, you can get an extra dark ebony in one generation and an extra light in the third. Ebony is really about as controllable as mosaics sometimes!
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Agree. I kept my ebonies together. Ebonies are trickier to show and sell because almost everyone (even judges) prefer the xtra darks. I've had some gorgeous mediums that did well at show, but were harder to place even though they were great breeding tools. The lighter ebs and std e/c typically ended up as pets.
 
A little more evidence to add to the eb/c thoughts. I have a violet mosaic male that is totally white with a violet spot on his rump he is mated to a standard violet carrier female with no eb in her lines for 10 generations back that I have records of. The male has a eb female in the pedigree 5 generations ago. Today we have two X dark eb females out of the pair. I am truly convinced that the eb gene is carried and sometimes will not express it self for many many generations.
 
jags said:
A little more evidence to add to the eb/c thoughts. I have a violet mosaic male that is totally white with a violet spot on his rump he is mated to a standard violet carrier female with no eb in her lines for 10 generations back that I have records of. The male has a eb female in the pedigree 5 generations ago. Today we have two X dark eb females out of the pair. I am truly convinced that the eb gene is carried and sometimes will not express it self for many many generations.
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So much for getting a violet I guess...lol
 
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