Photos of 1st Place Winning Chin Found On Craigslist

[Caroline]

As I said before, we had originally wanted to start with a mosaic and for reasons I don't need to explain we decided to take Hayley. Gracie fell into our laps so to speak. We still want a mosaic next. We will gladly get a standard as our.next chin after that one.

 

[Christina Noraas]

Why I want to breed is no ones business but my own and they may be very similar to why many of you started breeding.

How would any one be able to determine if it's the same reasons as other breeders on this forum are similar to yours as to why you started breeding, if you won't answer. :hmm:

 

[Caroline]

I only pressed because I asked earlier today in the afternoon, and you didn't answer. It certainly is your business, but don't expect to post on a public forum and not have the reason pique the curiosity of the members here, and everyone has the right to express their opinion. The people on here are only trying to help and make sure that you make an informed decision, so you can avoid mistakes others have made in the past and produce quality chinchillas, if you choose to do so.

I am more than willing to learn about chin care, breeding etc. I am very willing to listen to others advice and suggestions, but not when I am being interrogated, my words twisted around, belittled and accused of things.

To expect others to state their reasoning for breeding, and yet post your intent and not accept the same questioning is absurd.

If you look back on previous posts you will see that others expected me first to state my reason for breeding and yet not one of them have been willing to post their intent.

I have many friends in the Lipizzan community and horse community in general whom I turn to for advice. Several of my Lipizzan friends have trained with the best from the Spanish Riding School in Vienna and have some very high quality horses. If I make a mistake they don't all jump on me like a pack of dogs but rather gently teach me. One dear friend is working towards competing in the 2016 Olympics, yet she does not interrogate me or make me feel inferiour like I have been made to feel today. She treats me with respect and she has taught me so much. I am well liked and respected even though I still have a lot to learn. I have never experienced anything when I discuss things regarding my horses like I have today.

 

[Caroline]

How would any one be able to determine if it's the same reasons as other breeders on this forum are similar to yours as to why you started breeding, if you won't answer. :hmm:

Why should I answer when just about all I have said, including the fact that I have had experience in breeding show dogs that were amoung the best in Canada, has been twisted around? I am not about to put myself into another situation where I am treated like that again.

I may come back here to this forum to read the posts and to gather information, but it will be a long time before I ever post here again.

 

[addictedtochins]

I have never experienced anything when I discuss things regarding my horses like I have today.

http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25470
Have you told your horse friends you keep a wolf in the barn with your horses? To me it is the same as your kitty playing through the bars of the chins cage. Have you told your horse friends you intend breeding bargain priced craigs list horses to get a dressage champion?

 

[Jenn]

Please don't be offended with everyone's responses here. Everyone's intentions are for the best, and sometimes don't come out well. Breeding, of any sort, is a huge responsibility, and shouldn't be taken lightly. The members here have come acrossed so many people who breed irresponsibly, or go into without doing their proper homework first. There are already so many qualified breeders out there. Just make sure this is something you are really committed to, and make sure that if you do go forward with this, that you are a responsible breeder, breeding for the right reasons, and that you know what you are getting in to. Read the breeding section, and the horrors that go along with it. Good luck with whatever path you choose.

 

[Gabby88]

I don't think anyone has said anything mean. I think all of the information given has been very helpful.

I'd want to know if I intended to breed that breeding so many mutations is a bad idea. I don't think I'd be offended if people told me that information.

It's very good advice. I won't ever breed, but I know if I ever wanted to I would be sure to listen to the advice of experienced breeders.

 

[Caroline]

http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25470
Have you told your horse friends you keep a wolf in the barn with your horses? To me it is the same as your kitty playing through the bars of the chins cage. Have you told your horse friends you intend breeding bargain priced craigs list horses to get a dressage champion?

Oh for crying out loud give it a rest! The cats have lost interest in the chinchillas, the cat that played through the bars is crosseyed and therefore has poor vision and couldn't make contact if she tried, and in the past nearly two months we have finally been able to move rooms around and I now have my own craftroom where the chins live.

As far as your second comment, did you read the article I posted a link to about the Lipizzan? This isn't a bargain priced craigslist chinchilla, but rather a chinchilla from a reputable breeder that could have fallen through the cracks like my friend's horse did and was caught. Neither breeder made any financial gain by encouraging me to buy her, had they really wanted to make money off of me they would have discouraged me and tried to sell me one of the females that they have for sale now.

Lastly, had I been able to breed a dressage champion from a bargain craigslist horse I know that they would have been very proud of me. The one friend who is an Olympic hopeful has several bargain priced horses that she is training to be dressage horses.

 

[Caroline]

Please don't be offended with everyone's responses here. Everyone's intentions are for the best, and sometimes don't come out well. Breeding, of any sort, is a huge responsibility, and shouldn't be taken lightly. The members here have come acrossed so many people who breed irresponsibly, or go into without doing their proper homework first. There are already so many qualified breeders out there. Just make sure this is something you are really committed to, and make sure that if you do go forward with this, that you are a responsible breeder, breeding for the right reasons, and that you know what you are getting in to. Read the breeding section, and the horrors that go along with it. Good luck with whatever path you choose.

Read the post above yours and tell me again that I should not be offended. I have repeated and rereated myself numerous times and yet noone appears to be listening. Had I been an irresponsible breeder of dogs I would never have achieved the quality I did. I bred my first litter when I was 19, that is 31 years ago. I have already stated that I have experienced horrors in breeding. I have lost both dogs and puppies during breeding and whelping because of other peoples bad choices. I have lost children because of dr's bad choices, I know the risks! I understand the costs of animal ownership. I have had to pay vet bills that added up to over $2000. I am not entering this naively and yet I am being treated as though I am.
I know that I need to educate myself before starting to breed, I am sure that I stated that somewhere in this post as well. I have at least a year to do so before we undertake any breeding.

 

[tunes]

To the OP - I don't care who your mentor is. Supporting your urge to breed a dark tan to a white/vc is pretty silly, especially for a first time breeder. Garbage in, garbage out. If you throw together nothing but mutations on top of mutations then you are going to get crappy chins.

Here in SD, there are many butthead ranchers who throw 100s of mares out on 1000s of acres, then throws a stallion in there to have a good time. Of course, the offspring end up at the meat auction, but hey, at least they are breeding, right? It's one of the saddest things you can imagine to watch the yearlings being beaten and cattle prodded to get them into the auction ring. It made me physically ill and it's something I'll never forget. Welcome to breeding just because you want to, not because you have a clue what you're doing.

Take a breath and stop getting all offended because people are asking questions. Do you think you're the first person who was asked these questions? The FIRST question my mentor asked me is "why do you want to breed?" The second one was "what do you hope to achieve?" That's no different than what people are asking here, you're just not answering, instead you keep comparing breeding chins to horses. Well, responsible folks who breed horses also have a plan in mind before they start.

Here's what I got from this thread, and believe me, I've tried to ignore it because I could see where it was heading. You want to buy baby chins and buy baby mates, let them grow up, and put them together. I don't buy baby chins. I went through the whole "awwww, they are so CUTE" phase too. Then I realized that, huh, those babies are cute, but ugh, they are not so hot when they grow up and now I've wasted money and I will sell them at a loss to pet homes because no one in their right mind would put those animals into breeding.

Maybe everybody didn't jump on the bandwagon and congratulate you for your breeding choices, but you have still been given good advice by several people. It wouldn't hurt you to try and get past the need to be defensive and actually take note of that advice.

 

[tunes]

My apologies. The pictures are either incredibly crappy, the condition of the chin is horrid, or my monitor just doesn't like them. That's an eb in the pictures? It's coming across as tan for me.

 

[Amphy64]

I truly don't think anyone was trying to be rude (and there have been times I've thought members have gone a bit far, but I didn't think this was one), simply offer information and advise that might be helpful to you in this. If you want to breed quality chins, then knowing things like, for instance, why it can be best not to pair mutation to mutation, especially at first, and understanding the placing system at shows so you know that while a first is good, there are higher awards, is just useful, right? They've mentioned mistakes they themselves made, to help you avoid them.

I'm sure your experience with dogs has given you an idea of the responsibilities of breeding, and members are taking that into account, but of course, as you know, not all of that experience will transfer to chinchillas. Since you mentioned you wouldn't have been able to achieve the quality you did in dogs had you not been responsible, you've probably seen for yourself that, sadly, show success actually doesn't necessarily prove a breeder is responsible, I'm sure you're aware of the controversy over health problems in pedigree dogs, sometimes directly caused by breeding for what the interpretation of the breed standards suggested was show quality. Please don't take this as criticism as I am not suggesting this was the case, I have no reason to think that. It's just your experience with dogs doesn't tell us what you know so far about chins, other than, very importantly, you do know breeding is hard work and can be heartbreaking.

When you're able to attend shows, you'll get a better idea of how everything works, how to judge quality and about breeding for different mutations (ebonies particularly in your case), and be able to look at where you are with your own chins. Hope it will be interesting and helpful for you, I know I've certainly learnt a lot from going to shows and listening to the judge's comments. You do have time to continue to learn, I think people were just concerned that you bought two chins you intend to use as breeding animals relatively quickly, and without being able to attend a show to get a bit more experience first.

 

[Jenn]

Read the post above yours and tell me again that I should not be offended. I have repeated and rereated myself numerous times and yet noone appears to be listening. Had I been an irresponsible breeder of dogs I would never have achieved the quality I did. I bred my first litter when I was 19, that is 31 years ago. I have already stated that I have experienced horrors in breeding. I have lost both dogs and puppies during breeding and whelping because of other peoples bad choices. I have lost children because of dr's bad choices, I know the risks! I understand the costs of animal ownership. I have had to pay vet bills that added up to over $2000. I am not entering this naively and yet I am being treated as though I am.
I know that I need to educate myself before starting to breed, I am sure that I stated that somewhere in this post as well. I have at least a year to do so before we undertake any breeding.

I do think you are lashing out at people who are reaching out to you. I do think you are lashing out to people who don't want to see another breeder out there who realizes later on that they made a mistake breeding in the first place. Every animal is different. Just because you have bred one, doesn't make you an expert in all areas of breeding. I realize you are not happy with the way people have reacted with your decision to breed, but you really shouldn't want us to all blindly accept this. That would make us all irresponsible. I'm sorry you took my friendly words of support, and threw them back at me. Again, it is your decision what you do, good luck either way.

 

[Andrea]

You won't even consider a nice standard? Why? In my opinion "because I don't want to" is sort of an irresponsible reason when several people have explained the concept of "quality in, quality out" and breeding too many mutes...we are trying to help you but it seems to be falling on deaf ears. I sincerely wish you luck and I hope your mentor can assist you well throughout building your breeding program. I still would be interested to hear your breeding goals but I wouldn't be surprised not to see you back here...sorry if we scared you off.

 

[ticklechin]

Your mentors are members here right? Perhaps they should join this thread since its about there chins futures being bred for who knows why.

 

[RDZCRanch]

You won't even consider a nice standard? Why? In my opinion "because I don't want to" is sort of an irresponsible reason when several people have explained the concept of "quality in, quality out" and breeding too many mutes.

I am not getting that from her posts at all. She stated...

As I said before, we had originally wanted to start with a mosaic and for reasons I don't need to explain we decided to take Hayley. Gracie fell into our laps so to speak. We still want a mosaic next. We will gladly get a standard as our.next chin after that one.

This to me means they want a mosaic, not necessarily that she's going to throw it in with her females right away. She also said she will gladly get a standard after they get the mosaic they want.

Shoe Woman, I hope you haven't taken any of my posts as offensive or attacking. I am only trying to help you start on a better path for breeding. You seem like you have an interest in breeding quality animals so my advice is geared towards that. I think you've done a good amount of research, but the best research you can do is attend a chinchilla show. I've asked a couple times, but it never hurts to try again. Will you be at the show in September that is being held in Washington, only a few hours from you? I really hope you can attend as you will not only get a chance to learn about quality but you will get to meet many of the west coast breeders (there are few of us that pay attention to the boards these days). You may also be able to get a mosaic at the show.

Another thing to keep in mind, you could always get a mosaic female and a high quality standard male and use that as your starting pair. Is there any particular reason you want to breed Hayley and Gracie?

 

[Caroline]

My mentor has been breeding for many many years. I got Hayley from her and because she knows her bloodlines she has suggested getting a male from a bloodline that would compliment Hayley's, I trust that if breeding her to a mosaic were not a good idea that she would have cautioned me against that and recommened a standard. At no point during our discussion on mutations and dilutes did she appear in anyway concerned that we needed to breed back to a standard the next generation. I have sent her an email asking her after how many generations she recommends breeding back to a stanfard. At no time have any of you even inquired how many generations back there are standards in their first three generations.
I asked the breeder about who she recommended for Gracie, who is an adult and she told me. She knows her bloodlines well enough to know who to recommend and who not to. Yes I found Gracie on Craigslist but that does not in anyway suddenly make her genetically inferior.
Whether the breeding were to take place in her home or in mine under het careful tuition should make no difference, she lives not to far from me. I also can't see how the babies would be any different if they were born in my home rather than hers, it would be the same breeding, the genetics will not be altered, just the location.
I have a very bright 11 year old who has been sitting at the computer with the pedigree charts fascinated about colour mutations. She has been playing with a colour calculator and expressed that she wished that they provided a way to include more information about previous generations because she realizes that this too will have an influence on colour. She too understands the importance of breeding back Tina standard every few generations so that the genes do not become to diluted. Ask.her and she can already.tell you some of the colour combinations are lethal.
We have discussed the importance of learning first about chin care, then about breeding. We are planning on attending the show in September and learning.
Yes I am going to become defensive when none of you know me and without even taking the time to get to know me you start to assume and criticize. I tried to tell you about myself and that fell on deaf ears. Yes I just got my first chinchillas and yes I would like to breed them, if I want to start with babies then so be it, I have seen adult offspring of the parents and they turned out very nicely and hopefully Hayley and the male I get will turn out like their siblings. If they don't then obviously they will not be used for breeding and will remain beloved pets. I do not intend to breed for a year which gives us plenty of time to be prepared.

 

[Caroline]

I am not getting that from her posts at all. She stated...



This to me means they want a mosaic, not necessarily that she's going to throw it in with her females right away. She also said she will gladly get a standard after they get the mosaic they want.

Shoe Woman, I hope you haven't taken any of my posts as offensive or attacking. I am only trying to help you start on a better path for breeding. You seem like you have an interest in breeding quality animals so my advice is geared towards that. I think you've done a good amount of research, but the best research you can do is attend a chinchilla show. I've asked a couple times, but it never hurts to try again. Will you be at the show in September that is being held in Washington, only a few hours from you? I really hope you can attend as you will not only get a chance to learn about quality but you will get to meet many of the west coast breeders (there are few of us that pay attention to the boards these days). You may also be able to get a mosaic at the show.

Another thing to keep in mind, you could always get a mosaic female and a high quality standard male and use that as your starting pair. Is there any particular reason you want to breed Hayley and Gracie?

No I have not tsken offence with anything you have said and I am looking forward to meeting you in Sept. Why breed Gracie and Hayley, well they are beautiful females with good temperaments, they have good bloodlines, they are show quality and both breeders would have used them for breeding had they kept them.

 

[Andrea]

I still disagree with breeding an ebony to a mosaic v/c but of the breeders here and your mentor I guess it's "okay" and besides, you have already decided on it. My point about breeding eb's to a dark standard comes from my own research but I'm not a breeder nor do I plan to breed so perhaps I was mistaken and breeding ebony to mosaic v/c for a first litter when establishing your lines is a fine way to go. I personally would not, but then I'm never breeding, so it's a moot point. Good luck, I hope you learn a lot in this year prior to breeding.

 

[Chin_Parent]

Yes I am going to become defensive when none of you know me and without even taking the time to get to know me you start to assume and criticize. I tried to tell you about myself and that fell on deaf ears. Yes I just got my first chinchillas and yes I would like to breed them, if I want to start with babies then so be it, I have seen adult offspring of the parents and they turned out very nicely and hopefully Hayley and the male I get will turn out like their siblings. If they don't then obviously they will not be used for breeding and will remain beloved pets. I do not intend to breed for a year which gives us plenty of time to be prepared.

I tried to get to know you by asking questions, so I could help you out. I've also read your previous threads and have weighed in before and helped you out. However, you don't answer a fundamental question, which makes me nervous. Naturally I'm going to be apprehensive about you breeding if you refuse to say why you want to. My point isn't to attack but rather to impart advice and make sure that the right thing is being done for the animals. Breeding just because you can isn't a good reason. I just wonder what you're gaining from breeding, and if you can't be equally satisfied with having them as pets and merely purchasing quality chinchillas rather than breeding them.

Just a thought.