Percentage of Pink White babies.

[weew]

Hey folks,
I have an question regarding creating pink white baby chin. Here is my question.

I got an Silver White + Homo Beige = Pink White ( beige carrier)

Then I will be breeding this Pink White to a homo beige, I am guessing i will be getting higher chances of Beige then a pink white due to the parent is beige. Agreed? or I will still have 50/50 chances to get a pink white? I would love to hear your opinion.

weew.

 

[Anne-Lise]

You can use the silverfall chin cross calculator: http://www.silverfallchinchilla.com/genetics/ChinCrossCalculator.aspx

It would give you 50% pink white yes, 25% being hetero beige pink white and 25% homo beige pink white.

I always try to keep the mutation breeding simple, as not putting too many mutations together, as much as I can at least.

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

Have to correct the above.

You would get 25% hetero beige, 25% homo beige, 25% pink white, and 25% homo beige pink white.

Not sure why you would want to stick those two together. Doesn't sound like the greatest idea to me...but that is just my opinion.

 

[Ruby]

With this combination (Pink White x Homo Beige) you would still have the same chance of getting a pink white if you were breeding a hetero beige and a white together, 50%.

 

[tunes]

Jessica - Weew isn't overly concerned with genetics or quality. He just likes to breed for cute babies.

Weew - You plan on throwing a standard in there any time soon?

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

Oh I see. Post pics when you have the newbies!

 

[weew]

Anne - Thanks for the link, been using it. It does not match exactly what i am seeking for.

Godin - Thanks! What others good suggestion you can advice me? I just need PINK WHITE/Home homo beige pink white will do!

Ruby - Is my mistake, what i have listed above is suppose to be am home beige pink white, not pink white. My concern is to create pink white from above combo.

tune - HI TUNE!!! I think that is great idea to throw in a standard, an it definately will strengthen the over all output quality of the offspring, however, it will have very little chance for me to get pink white from what I am aim for. A mosaic is good as well, but i still love pink white!!

Oh! I just got 4 babies today! yeah! Will take some pictures and post it up!

If i am putting in a PINK WHITE, not home beige pink white, THEN I believe i will have higher chances to produce pink white with any chin I have on hands now.

 

[RDZCRanch]

I bred a standard to a pink white and never got anything but pink whites...

You are not improving your chances of getting a pink white by sticking mutation to mutation to mutation. You will never get 100% pink white no matter what you pair...my recommendation is to use a standard. By putting too many mutations together without putting a high quality PURE standard in there somewhere you're not helping the future babies. Eventually the quality will decrease enough that you will start having early kit deaths (they'll die around 2 to 6 months old). I've seen this happen before with someone only interested in producing mutations so they didn't have any standards in the herd. People aren't warning you because they think you should have show quality chins...we don't want to see unhealthy animals or animals dying early!

I hope you reconsider the pairing for the health of your chins. The pair you are considering has a LOT of mutation in the background...now it's time to bring in a nice quality standard(not from a mutation pairing but from pure standard lines).

 

[Linda]

By putting too many mutations together without putting a high quality PURE standard in there somewhere you're not helping the future babies. Eventually the quality will decrease enough that you will start having early kit deaths (they'll die around 2 to 6 months old). I've seen this happen before with someone only interested in producing mutations so they didn't have any standards in the herd. People aren't warning you because they think you should have show quality chins...we don't want to see unhealthy animals or animals dying early!

Is there somewhere that I can read about this phenomenon, what the recommended number of generations is, etc. I don't remember seeing anything in my readings on early kit deaths, but I fear I don't know where breeders go to learn such things.

Linda

 

[RDZCRanch]

Is there somewhere that I can read about this phenomenon, what the recommended number of generations is, etc. I don't remember seeing anything in my readings on early kit deaths, but I fear I don't know where breeders go to learn such things.

Linda

A lot of what breeders know today we learned from personal experience or from other breeders. You just have to formulate the questions you want answered and ask breeders or visit a rancher...they will entertain you for hours on stories. They also have a wealth of knowledge when it comes to genetics.

I sent you a PM so that we don't jack the thread

 

[weew]

Is there somewhere that I can read about this phenomenon, what the recommended number of generations is, etc. I don't remember seeing anything in my readings on early kit deaths, but I fear I don't know where breeders go to learn such things.

Linda

I have to agreed with you linda. No doubt breeding mutation and mutation MAY not create a super quality offspring compare with mutation mixing with a standard. However, I wondering, those mutation we have today, HOW MANY GENERATIONS OF INBREEDING to produce those MUTATION....

Further more, I am also very supprise that your pairing pink white with standard and you get NOTHING ELSE but just pink white? You are super lucky RDZCRanch, I pair pink white with standard before, I get higher chance of mosaic then any other colour, but i NEVER get JUST ANYTHING ELSE BUT MOSIAC, I get multiple of color tho.:cry3:

From my personal opinion, what you heard from maybe true, but are you very sure the kits dead is due to the result of breeding mutation x mutation x mutaion for generation? If yes, then first breeder you should visit is Ritterspach.

I would love to hear from others too to correct me if i am damp wrong.:impatient:

 

[tunes]

Weew - I have a pink white/standard pair here and every litter I get a PW and a standard. So yes, it does happen.

Also, what does visiting Ritterspach have to do with anything? Death in kits aside, anybody who has any experience with breeding can tell you that constantly putting mute to mute weakens the offspring in terms of quality. Smaller in size, less desirable fur, etc. You don't need to consult a book to find that. Ask any breeder with half a brain.

 

[RDZCRanch]

Yes I was very lucky with that particular pair, but that is what happens with genetics. You get lucky or you don't. I know other people that have mutation to mutation and always get standard babies. The genetics your chinchillas throw will be random, you can predict what offspring they MAY have but unless you pair a standard to a standard or a homozygous something to a standard, it's all up to luck.

While there was inbreeding done to develop certain mutations, have you noticed the lack of inbreeding today? It's not necessary when there are enough lines in the gene pool to move away from inbreeding. Have you seen any pictures of the first mutations? They were very low quality, only pairing them back to standards and slowly building their quality back up has given us the mutations we have today.

And It is not "what I've heard" it's what I have witnessed personally. I was there, I helped with the breeder's herd (I was the "successor") and my friend was the person who hand reared rejected babies for the same breeder. The kits in the litter grew progressively smaller over a three year period of mutation to mutation breeding and their survival rate and age decreased as well.

I also don't see what visiting Ritterspach would do. My herd does not have any problems since I learned from previous mistakes and last I checked Jim uses standards in his herd. The only time a rancher would recommend multiple mutation to mutation breedings would be if you had exceptional quality mutations that could rival standards. The rule of thumb is two generations of mutation to mutation breeding and then you go back to a standard.

 

[weew]

Yes, i doing 2 generations of mutation and then back to standard.

 

[Becky]

Most people put standards in every other generation, if not more often. As nice as a mutation might be, they aren't as nice as a GOOD standard.

My pink whites come from a standard/pink white pairing most of the time.

 

[Linda]

While there was inbreeding done to develop certain mutations, have you noticed the lack of inbreeding today? It's not necessary when there are enough lines in the gene pool to move away from inbreeding. Have you seen any pictures of the first mutations? They were very low quality, only pairing them back to standards and slowly building their quality back up has given us the mutations we have today.

Now I'm getting confused. Is the problem inbreeding? Or is the problem mutations? If you outcross a pink white from one line to a beige from another line does that produce lower quality pups than if you outcross a pink white from one line to a standard from the same line as the beige outcross (say a standard littermate of the beige outcross)? Or is it fine to breed one mutation to another mutation (i.e. a beige to a white) to produce stronger pups? In other words, is it the standard that matters or the fact that you outcross that makes the difference?

A lot of what breeders know today we learned from personal experience or from other breeders. You just have to formulate the questions you want answered and ask breeders or visit a rancher...

It's very hard to formulate a question until you know there's a problem you should be asking about -- or unless you breed the wrong things and get problem pups and then ask why you got the problem pups.

Linda

 

[Godins Chinchillas]

"In other words, is it the standard that matters or the fact that you outcross that makes the difference?"

Both. This really should all be common sense-even for you Linda. I've seen it alot in dogs when backyard breeders are using "crap" dogs-they get more "crap" dogs with genetic problems. I've seen swimmers in purebred dogs. All from poor breeding.

You can't get solid animals if you keep breeding mute to mute. One's herd should consist of at least 70% (if not more) of pure standards. And if it doesn't then you've got nothing. All of my mutes, with the exception of one, are with pure standards. Bring a mute/mute/mute/mute offspring to a show table..let's see how it compares to a mute/standard pairing.

 

[tunes]

Linda - They are kits, not pups. Pups are hammies, kits are chin bebbies.

Standards are (or should be) the backbone of any herd. Good quality standards are what will make your mutations better quality animals. I get beautiful tans and dark ebonies out of standard to mutation pairings. You can surely put a white and a beige together, but then I personally put that offspring back to a standard if at all possible to keep improving on the overall quality of the offspring from that next generation. IMO, it's definitely the standard that matters. Without getting standard breedings into your mutations, I think you definitely lose something.

 

[RDZCRanch]

Now I'm getting confused. Is the problem inbreeding? Or is the problem mutations? If you outcross a pink white from one line to a beige from another line does that produce lower quality pups than if you outcross a pink white from one line to a standard from the same line as the beige outcross (say a standard littermate of the beige outcross)? Or is it fine to breed one mutation to another mutation (i.e. a beige to a white) to produce stronger pups? In other words, is it the standard that matters or the fact that you outcross that makes the difference?

Both, but mainly it's the standard that matters. You can outcross to another mutation with mutation in its background and end up with lower quality kits. Too much mutation no matter how many different lines you are working with will produce the same result. I commented on inbreeding because the OP pointed that out as a defense for breeding mutation to mutation. As if, the mutations being inbred in the past proves that breeding mute to mute today is also not bad.

It's very hard to formulate a question until you know there's a problem you should be asking about -- or unless you breed the wrong things and get problem pups and then ask why you got the problem pups.

Agreed, and that is how I began until I found the shows and began spending time talking to ranchers and just listening to stories they had. You can also find out more questions and learn a lot more by visiting breeders and ranchers and just spending time talking with them and seeing their animals or attending a show.

ETA: I completely agree with Peggy (Tunes). While it is ok to do up to two generations of mutation to mutation I put 99% of my mutations with standards. It's a better breeding practice and it just isn't necessary to breed all of these multiple mutation combinations just so you can have a TOV beige white sapphire wrap.

 

[weew]

Weew - I have a pink white/standard pair here and every litter I get a PW and a standard. So yes, it does happen.

I will try this pair, since 50% will have pink white.

Below are result from the chin cross calculator, it listed 50% PW & 50% Beige. it does not have any percentage of grey. Isnt it should have at least 12.5%/25%?

Sire:
Standard Gray

Dam:
Pink White (Homo Beige)

Kits:
Pink White (Hetero Beige)
50.00%
Beige (Hetero)
50.00%