So we all know that malocclusion isn't curable. Hypothetically speaking, you just find out that your chin has malo. At what point do you put them down? Do most people put them through multiple filings before making this decision? Have any of you decided not to put them through treatment when you already know the end result? I know there are malo threads (I am sure there are a lot of them), I'm just trying to get collective opinions.
Malo chins.
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Godins Chinchillas
Godin's Chinchillas
If I had a malo chin I euthanize them right away. For most people they tend to wait till the quality of life has been diminished.
Jessica
Jessica
I had a malo chin for five years. He was diagnosed when he was about a year old. His teeth were in pretty bad shape. Even with as bad off as his teeth were he got five happy years with me. Yes we did some filing, yes he went through some stasis, and yes he went through some bloat. Putting him down when I first found out I think would have taken away from him what life he had. I rescued him and I am fairly certain he was poorly cared for. He got five years of spoiling when he was a bouncy, sweet, and mostly happy chinchilla. Why not allow him that? With some chins malo develops much slower I would not put down a malo chinchilla unless there was no quality of life to be had. As long as most of the time the chinchilla is not in a lot of pain, healthy otherwise, and appears happy I think they should be given the chance at life. Who knows how much healthy time they could get. My guy only had filings every 6 months or so and did quite well for a long time.
Tagna
Chin lover
I am going through this now. My 3.5 year old chin Athena was just diagnosed recently and the xrays are bad. I will be putting her down soon. I always said I would pts right away but when the xrays came in I found I just wanted to spoil her for a little bit. Selfish of me but for now she seems okay with pain meds and hand feeding. She runs on her wheel but I know I will be calling the vet sooner rather than later.
Thanks for the responses. I am just trying to get some information for if/when I get to that point. I think I'm probably somewhere between Jessica and Lilly in how I believe I would handle it. I can't say that I would PTS immediately but I don't know that I would put him through years of treatment, if I had that long.
Lilly: I totally understand your reasons for it and don't blame you at all.
Tagna: I'm so sorry to hear about Athena. =( I don't think it is selfish at all. I believe that I would be doing the same exact thing.
Lilly: I totally understand your reasons for it and don't blame you at all.
Tagna: I'm so sorry to hear about Athena. =( I don't think it is selfish at all. I believe that I would be doing the same exact thing.
Jaina_Organasolo
Well-known member
- Joined
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Personally I believe that it depends very much on the Chin, the type and the stage of the Malo.
I have had 3 malo chins, 2 I have now. All have had root elongation. The first one I had was pts after 3 months. I let him go when he became depressed and lethargic; we upper his pain killers and he just didn't get better.
The two I have now are a good example of how different the same condition can be. Both were diagnosed around October last year, so about 5 months ago. Ted is the worst. He is now on metacam and tramadol, he is also syringe fed 40ml of critical care daily BUT he is happy, bounce and bright. He eats for himself, just not enough to maintain his weight. Because he is coping so well I've decided that the end point for me will be when he can't eat for himself at all or he drops below 500g. He's a fighter so I can't see him giving up but I don't think he's got a year in him.
Bill is his cagemate and has also been diagnosed. He got him checked out because he had persistent eye infections. Occasionally it flares up and he gets a gunky eye, Im told his is due to the teeth moving in the sockets, so he's being given vitamin c supplement. He doesn't really eat hay and his poop is a bit deformed but that is it. He eats for himself and is currently gaining weight. Depending on his progression I think he will be around for a while.
I could understand people having a chin like Ted pts, but I wonder how many would do the same to Bill? Had I have left it when he got this last eye infection (which did clear up totally) he would be an diagnosed malo chin. Just a thought.
I have had 3 malo chins, 2 I have now. All have had root elongation. The first one I had was pts after 3 months. I let him go when he became depressed and lethargic; we upper his pain killers and he just didn't get better.
The two I have now are a good example of how different the same condition can be. Both were diagnosed around October last year, so about 5 months ago. Ted is the worst. He is now on metacam and tramadol, he is also syringe fed 40ml of critical care daily BUT he is happy, bounce and bright. He eats for himself, just not enough to maintain his weight. Because he is coping so well I've decided that the end point for me will be when he can't eat for himself at all or he drops below 500g. He's a fighter so I can't see him giving up but I don't think he's got a year in him.
Bill is his cagemate and has also been diagnosed. He got him checked out because he had persistent eye infections. Occasionally it flares up and he gets a gunky eye, Im told his is due to the teeth moving in the sockets, so he's being given vitamin c supplement. He doesn't really eat hay and his poop is a bit deformed but that is it. He eats for himself and is currently gaining weight. Depending on his progression I think he will be around for a while.
I could understand people having a chin like Ted pts, but I wonder how many would do the same to Bill? Had I have left it when he got this last eye infection (which did clear up totally) he would be an diagnosed malo chin. Just a thought.
I forgot to mention in my post... I was trying to keep it short and sweet... and well, not cry. My little guy got treatment about every 6 months over the course of about 4-4 1/2 years. However he was on little painkiller and was typically only handfed a few days after treatment. After his tooth work the stinker would often be eating pellets on his own the same day. Typically I handfed for a bit, just to get some weight on him and make sure he was eating enough. He was always on the smaller side but he was not super low until the end. When I got him he weighed about 540 grams and he was approximately 8 months old. I rescued him from the humane society so I knew the risks. In the last two years I had him I even made the hard decision of letting the vet extract a tooth. They kept him overnight. As soon as I got him home he started munching pellets and hay. He still chewed, ran in his wheel, was affectionate. He was just a trooper. He fought so hard to live I did not want to take it from him before it was time. In the end though he went downhill fast, one day himself, the next listless.
Not everyone is willing to go through that. However with some chinchillas if caught early the malo can be mild for a long time. A filing every 6 months isn't really putting the chinchilla through a lot, not if they are healthy the rest of the time. My recommendation for someone in the same situation would be to base it on the chinchilla's behavior and how much root elongation there is. IF the roots are growing into the jaw line or toward the sinus cavity then it is likely the chinchilla is in a lot of pain and should be put to sleep. I relied a lot on my vet's recommendation. He was not afraid to tell me the truth. I am however extremely lucky to have a vet who sees hundreds of chinchillas and specializes in exotics. It's a blessing that comes with living in a town with a college vet program.
Not everyone is willing to go through that. However with some chinchillas if caught early the malo can be mild for a long time. A filing every 6 months isn't really putting the chinchilla through a lot, not if they are healthy the rest of the time. My recommendation for someone in the same situation would be to base it on the chinchilla's behavior and how much root elongation there is. IF the roots are growing into the jaw line or toward the sinus cavity then it is likely the chinchilla is in a lot of pain and should be put to sleep. I relied a lot on my vet's recommendation. He was not afraid to tell me the truth. I am however extremely lucky to have a vet who sees hundreds of chinchillas and specializes in exotics. It's a blessing that comes with living in a town with a college vet program.
RDZCRanch
RavenousDeadlyZombieChins
I PTS immediately. It's not worth it to the chin or myself to put them through the filings.
My very first chin, Jewel, I had for eight years. She would ride on my shoulder while I cleaned cages and literally go everywhere with me. She was and will always be my favorite chinchilla. She was a pet store chin and developed malo around 6 years old. I did the filings for two years until she was just barely hanging on. When I finally put her to sleep, she looked so relieved to be out of pain that I knew it was wrong to have held on to her for that long. I won't ever do that to a chin again, especially one I love.
I've had several other malo cases since then, most I've followed putting them down immediately to keep them from ever knowing what pain or suffering is. Some I have fought for...and each of those I regret and wish I had just let them go sooner.
My very first chin, Jewel, I had for eight years. She would ride on my shoulder while I cleaned cages and literally go everywhere with me. She was and will always be my favorite chinchilla. She was a pet store chin and developed malo around 6 years old. I did the filings for two years until she was just barely hanging on. When I finally put her to sleep, she looked so relieved to be out of pain that I knew it was wrong to have held on to her for that long. I won't ever do that to a chin again, especially one I love.
I've had several other malo cases since then, most I've followed putting them down immediately to keep them from ever knowing what pain or suffering is. Some I have fought for...and each of those I regret and wish I had just let them go sooner.
Cuddlebug
Well-known member
I would PTS immediately. I live with constant pain myself and I would not want any other living thing to go through what I do. I haven't had to have a chin put down, but I have had cats and dogs that needed it. I hate seeing them in pain. Probably because I love them all.
Would you rather be dead than alive? People keep saying they want to end all pain and all suffering and that is why they put them down. Any animal or person more likely experiences some regular pain. It is about how much pain they can handle, how much impairs their life, how much makes them unhappy all of the time. Even a healthy nonmalo chin risks stasis, or bloat, or infections, or sprained/broken limbs, etc. Would you put down a chin with frequent stomach issues? A hurt paw? Don't they deserve a chance at life if they are happy and healthy otherwise? Perhaps they'd rather have a few happy years on Earth getting spoiled than be put together the first day a little elongation is spotted. Who knows, maybe treatment other than filing will be discovered. I can understand waiting too long to put an animal down and I can see how that is selfish. However, I think putting an animal down at the first sign of discomfort takes something from them. Many malo chins progress quite slowly and are quite happy for a long time. Maybe it's just harder for me to give up on a chinchilla when I have never had more than two at a time.
I deal with daily migranes (people will think I am exaggerating but my neurologist will support me on this) and often they are so painful it is hard to think about anything else. I'm still continuing. Still finishing my Master's degree. I refuse to not have a normal life due to pain. Can't some animals be just as stubborn?
So for those who would PTS immediately, do you think it would be at all cruel to wait until their quality of life was affected, before putting them down? For me, I don't breed, and I can't see putting them down on the spot if they are not in any discomfort. That's my personal opinion. My dog has arthritis in her back, some days are worse than others, but she is happy most of the time, on medication and I am careful with her. Now I'm not exactly comparing that to malo, as I know it's a totally different thing...but at this point her quality of life is mostly good and I would never put her down unless that changed and it could no longer be controlled. I can't imagine putting my chin down while the quality of life was not affected.
As for why I would PTS...I guess I should better compare it to cancer. If my dog had cancer I would keep them comfortable as long as possible and then PTS. I personally would never put my dog through chemo just to give them a little more time and a lot more misery. I think that if you feel your pets quality of life is good enough in between the filings, that's your judgement call, but...Since chins don't tend to show pain or illness until they are pretty bad off... how do you ever know -how- much pain they are actually in?
As for why I would PTS...I guess I should better compare it to cancer. If my dog had cancer I would keep them comfortable as long as possible and then PTS. I personally would never put my dog through chemo just to give them a little more time and a lot more misery. I think that if you feel your pets quality of life is good enough in between the filings, that's your judgement call, but...Since chins don't tend to show pain or illness until they are pretty bad off... how do you ever know -how- much pain they are actually in?
Sandi
non-stop poop sweeper
IMO, this is what I believe as well. I would not immediately put them to sleep. Having been through this disease with 2 of my chins, it is heart wrenching, even thinking about it now...
This was my CJ after a filing and this is how he was after most filings, BUT I did not hesitate to make the hardest decision I had to make when I knew that it was his time.
http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16656
Dreamlite
Well-known member
Its always sooo hard to tell with chins at which point its painful or just uncomfortable. I luckly have only had 2 mao cases and both of which progressed so quickly that euth was the best thing for them. My rule is alwaysto give them a chance till it becomesuncomfortable to live normally. If eating hurts, or moving... then yes I would have them pts. The thing is we use pain meds to keep them happy for us. So just be aware that they only work for a limited time and at some point you will have to deside when to call it quits. All the people saying pts immediately so far are breeders. That's not to say they don't care any less, but to them the bigger picture is there is no saving the chin or improving their life so I can understand that side as well.
RDZCRanch
RavenousDeadlyZombieChins
Malo is not curable. There will never be some break through cure that ends all malo and "frees" the chinchillas from pain. There are a lot of studies on malo, there are a lot of treatments. I know members who have done everything for their chins, but the story at the end of a malo case is ALWAYS the same. Knowing that your chin will die, if not from PTS then from shock from the pain of their roots growing down through their dentary bone or up into their eye socket or malnutrition...why prolong it?
Each chinchilla is special...they all have their unique personalities and it's very easy to fall in love with them. To me, quantity of life means absolutely nothing without quality. I know malo chins, and I know their quality of life will suck. When a chinchilla is showing signs of pain, it is too late. They are prey animals and hide their pain...when the pain gets to be too much for them to hide, it's already worse than you can imagine. I'd rather let them go a year early than a second late. There is absolutely no reason for me to put an innocent animal through pain that they don't understand or want, just to spend another few years with them. I let mine go when I find malo because I know there is no miraculous cure waiting around the corner. It will not get better.
I would rather be put out of my misery than live for X amount of years with a constantly painful, progressive disease. That isn't life.
Each chinchilla is special...they all have their unique personalities and it's very easy to fall in love with them. To me, quantity of life means absolutely nothing without quality. I know malo chins, and I know their quality of life will suck. When a chinchilla is showing signs of pain, it is too late. They are prey animals and hide their pain...when the pain gets to be too much for them to hide, it's already worse than you can imagine. I'd rather let them go a year early than a second late. There is absolutely no reason for me to put an innocent animal through pain that they don't understand or want, just to spend another few years with them. I let mine go when I find malo because I know there is no miraculous cure waiting around the corner. It will not get better.
I would rather be put out of my misery than live for X amount of years with a constantly painful, progressive disease. That isn't life.
Kansas City Chinchillas
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The biggest problem with root elongation (malo) is that you can't trim the part that is causing the most pain.
Sycamore Chins
Well-known member
To me, there are a few variables I would take into consideration before making a decision, or a recommendation for my future clients.
First, are they breeders or pets? If it's a breeding animal, or there is the chance it will be bred, euthanizing is the quickest and surest way to make sure those genes are not passed on. I had a pregnant female stop eating almost at full-term. I took a look in her mouth and her teeth were shot. I wasn't sure I could sustain her and the unborn kits through to delivery, and I didn't want to pass on the genes and have other people have to deal with it, so we euthanized her, and the babies. I was in tears when I took a look inside her at the nearly perfect kits. But in order for me to keep producing healthy animals it had to be done.
Second, what kind of malo are we talking? If it is root elongation, by the time you notice it it is usually very progressed. Can you imagine what having your teeth growing through your bone feels like? Nothing can be done, so i would definitely euthanize immediately.
If it is growth of the occlusal surface, I may consider filing. If the animal bounces back from the procedure with minimal lag time, and the filings are a good distance apart then I don't think that is a bad decision.
Third, what are the persons resources? I myself, don't have the time or money to go through multiple filings (and recoveries) a year. With so many animals I have to think of the "herd health" and not so much the individual. In select cases, the individual will be looked at, but in the case of malo, which is incurable, it's better for me to consider the herd's health.
The thing with animals is that they cannot tell you what kind of pain they are in. You can infer that once they stop eating, they are in immense pain, but how long were they in pain before they couldn't handle a basic self-preserving instinct like eating anymore! I agree with what's been said on here before "Better a day too soon than an hour too late". The special thing about veterinary medicine is that we can relieve animals suffering. Why should make them go through even one day of pain (in a terminal disease) when we have euthanasia at our disposal.
First, are they breeders or pets? If it's a breeding animal, or there is the chance it will be bred, euthanizing is the quickest and surest way to make sure those genes are not passed on. I had a pregnant female stop eating almost at full-term. I took a look in her mouth and her teeth were shot. I wasn't sure I could sustain her and the unborn kits through to delivery, and I didn't want to pass on the genes and have other people have to deal with it, so we euthanized her, and the babies. I was in tears when I took a look inside her at the nearly perfect kits. But in order for me to keep producing healthy animals it had to be done.
Second, what kind of malo are we talking? If it is root elongation, by the time you notice it it is usually very progressed. Can you imagine what having your teeth growing through your bone feels like? Nothing can be done, so i would definitely euthanize immediately.
If it is growth of the occlusal surface, I may consider filing. If the animal bounces back from the procedure with minimal lag time, and the filings are a good distance apart then I don't think that is a bad decision.
Third, what are the persons resources? I myself, don't have the time or money to go through multiple filings (and recoveries) a year. With so many animals I have to think of the "herd health" and not so much the individual. In select cases, the individual will be looked at, but in the case of malo, which is incurable, it's better for me to consider the herd's health.
The thing with animals is that they cannot tell you what kind of pain they are in. You can infer that once they stop eating, they are in immense pain, but how long were they in pain before they couldn't handle a basic self-preserving instinct like eating anymore! I agree with what's been said on here before "Better a day too soon than an hour too late". The special thing about veterinary medicine is that we can relieve animals suffering. Why should make them go through even one day of pain (in a terminal disease) when we have euthanasia at our disposal.
ticklechin
Well-known member
What matters to the chinchilla is quality of life not length of life since a chinchilla has little concept of future, death is different for animals, they are not like us; they don't worry about it before hand, they are not afraid of it. For them a good death is just another part of life, the last part. The most important thing is that we try to give them a good life and when that is no longer a reality, its time PTS.
