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luke - you assume that everyone is as methodological and scientific in their breeding as you are.

i will keep lesser/older breeders which will force me to sell younger/better animals because i do not want them (the older ones) to be passed from hand to hand and i know that while i will not cull them for non or slow production other breeders will. i cannot keep them all, i get a kick when they do really well at a show and the fact that i can get a good price for them helps offset how very un businesslike i am in general...

i would not recommend this as the business model for a top breeder it is just how i do it. my husband always says i make a lousy farmer...
 
Yes I am scientific and methodical in my breeding, As I personally believe everyone who claims to be breding to improve should be.
But what does how I breed have to do with what I decide to keep?
I have chins that have been produced here that are from 8-10 years old. Never been in breeding let alone produced a single kit . Many of my retired breeders will remain here until the pass on naturally. But that has nothing to do with the breeding aspect of it.
And it doesn't change that fact that if some one keeps a single animals and sells some you are getting second best.
and it doesn't change the fact that I am scientific and methodical in what I choose to breed.
 
luke, it has everything to do with it. there is a very limited number of animals i can keep regardless of if and what they breed. as a result, when i chose not to sell an animal i have for what ever reason (which is not a quality reason) i may well let go of an animal that is of better quality than what i have in the chinchilton.

i am neighter as scientific nor as methodological as you are but produce, nevertheless, some nice animals from time to time.
 
I would say the method for breeding depends on the reason. Personally, much as I strive to breed quality animals, my primary emphasis is NOT on show traits. I do not have the freedom to attend shows regularly, and most of my animals are sold as household pets. Therefore, my greatest emphasis is on health and personality. That is not to say that I don't strive for fur quality and size, just it's not my absolute top priority. If I had an animal who was a top show winner, but had a rotten mean personality, I would not breed them. But I am a hobby breeder. I breed strictly because I love it. My chinchillas are my children. I do not take a scientific or a business approach, because I am neither a scientist nor a business person. I am a person who loves chinchillas, and loves the opportunity to share that with others.
 
Ok so let me lob this in to the mix ..........

What is the definition of "best" in this scenario?
Is "best" simply an award winner - to some people this might be true, in which case they are getting the "best" for them if that is their criteria and a breeder sells them a GSC.
Is "best" a good breeding animal? Prolific? Breeds better than him/her?

In some cases "best" is in the eye of the beholder and is dependent on the personal criteria or the buyer/seller/breeder.

... just a thought :)
 
RMC said:
As I have said many times before. I put animals into breeding, Not trophy's or ribbons.
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As do many others including myself but I assess my herd based on how good the entire line is not just one animal and showing to me is learning wher I can improve not a ribbon or trophy, but the fact is if you have a set of chinchillas who can produce multiple show winning kits then you have a good breeding pair who is consistent with the quality they produce, but that does not mean if you sell a few of their kits you are selling second best. It is most likely becasue you cannot keep them all and stay a smaller breeder!
 
Ok back to the original topic of the thread. Many have stated that Malocclusion That appears at a older age is not genetic. I was wondering if anyone has any documentation studies to support this postion. It is contrary to the study of over 2500 animals done by Dr. James Lauridsen. His study involved herds where mal was from 2% to as high as 16%
His study come to the following conclussions. Mal is genetic ,it is recessive. The average age for first symptoms was 16 months. A few showed symptoms under a year. But some showed symptoms much later as late as 6 1/2 years old.
 
A summary of the research is found on page 71 of "Basic Genetics and Historyof Mutation Chinchillas".
 
Where do I found all of my info? very little is found on the net. Most comes from books and mags.many of wich are no longer in print. I am a genetics and history junky. So sometimes i Find the info just reading. Some of it is found when I go looking for a specific answer. If I can't find the answer then I ask long time breeder. many times they point me in the right direction. And if all that fails to find the answer I do some research myself.
But back to the topic. Many in this thread and elsewhere have been very quick to claim that it can't be genetic Mal. If it occurs at a older age. Yet no one has yet responded where this info originated or even wanting to debate The research mentioned.
after all this is a debate section. Not a make a claim and then hide when someone offers a differant point of view section.
 
Some FAQs concerning malo can be found here:

http://chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=859

Also,

http://www.chinchillas.com/resource/malocclusion.htm

Pretty decent read on an easy-to-access site. As they state, there are many combinations of genetic factors which can cause a chinchilla to malocclude. Any number of chinchillas in any stock, whether hobbyist or rancher, might have animals that when put together for breeding, form a combination of genes in a kit that cause it to malocclude. Hence why it is not so simple as "culling it out". If you had to cull out every trait of an animal that could be a cause of malo, you might not have much of a chinchilla's body remaining.

I think the emphasis on old age was said earlier, that when a chinchilla is older it does not place as much emphasis on chewing as was done at an earlier age. This might not have to be something that is necessarily "documented", as much as it might just be something that is "observed". Also, it seems that a majority of breeders on this site have experience with having malo appearing in their younger animals, not in their older ones. Again, another observation, but maybe not something every young hobby breeder feels they must go out and document in a scientific article or paper.

Besides, how practical is it to even really care what gene combinations cause malo? Like every rancher or breeder has the money to have each of their animal's DNA tested and compared to see if their breeding combinations could cause malo. I would think the best case is luck of the draw. The chance of malo is low, but it could happen. If it does, you do what is necessary to deal with the issue, whether that is euthanasia or filing its teeth down if the owner feels it is in their financial interests to do so. And honestly, I would think it is common sense not to breed the animal suffering from malo after the fact. It could potentially have the full combination of genes to cause the issue, so don't take a chance on letting those genes get passed on to the next poor baby!

And to clarify the topic so it gets back on point, the original questions asked were in concern to breeding age and if there is a definitive and exact way to know whether or not your breeding pair will produce kits with zero problems. As for breeding age, I think it can be any time after they reach a size that makes you comfortable. For me personally, I'm gonna guess 6-7 months, as that is when they tend to hit around 600g. I am sure it differs with others, and I am sure people will share those numbers in this topic. And honestly, we do not breed until after we show, which to this day has yet to be younger than 1 year old. Just something we practice being that we are small and that I do not depend on their breeding as a way to make a living.

As for assuring you that a kit will be perfect from birth until death, I think you know that answer already. We all get old, and we all end up with some sort of problem or another, humans too. I've had an animal I've bought from one of the best who's came home and died within 3 months for unknown reasons (vet post-death exam was inconclusive). I've also had a kit born now that has extremely slow growth, and again, the two animals paired were from top herds and whose prior kits were great animals with no issues whatsoever that was observed. What can you do? I'm definitely not going to pay to have the parents' DNA examined. I seriously doubt they would be found to be "unhealthy", and unworthy of a health certificate. Bad luck in the gene lottery. They won't be bred together again, but who's to say it would happen again? Only way to guarantee that would be to grow them in a petree dish and combine the DNA yourself.

As Therese has said to me, we've domesticated dogs and cats for thousands of years. We've domesticated chinchillas for about 100. There's just too much we still don't know about them, and there's just too many changes still occuring in the species to dare say we have found THE chinchilla whose genetics and health through the span of their lifetime could be labeled as "perfect". If he/she is found however, feel free to PM me as I will quickly respond with my personal mailing address. :thumbsup:
 
RMC said:
But back to the topic. Many in this thread and elsewhere have been very quick to claim that it can't be genetic Mal. If it occurs at a older age. Yet no one has yet responded where this info originated or even wanting to debate The research mentioned.
after all this is a debate section. Not a make a claim and then hide when someone offers a differant point of view section.
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Actually, if you read the posts on this thread carefully, most people have said it is unlikely to be genetic at an older age and that other factors can cause malocclusion - such as environmental, trauma, wear patterns etc.
Also there are a number of people away at the Nationals so even if they see your question I would strongly suspect that they don't have ready access their info atm - I do hope they do when they get back though.

How about some more up to date research then. David Crossley (well known and respected European Veterinary Specialist in Dentistry - speaks world wide on dental issues) has stated the following on his website:
Whilst genetics is certainly a factor to consider in the etiology of some dental diseases, including malocclusions in species without continuously growing teeth, it appears to be a minor factor in chinchillas. No studies have so far demonstrated a pattern of disease suggesting that dental disease in chinchillas is a primary hereditary problem.
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He goes on further to say:
The form of the diet and environmental stress appear to be major factors, so current investigations are looking into disease incidence and the foods given to different groups of animals.
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David has published many papers on dental problems in small furries, including specifics on chinchillas (2001). The research into chinchilla dental problems is ongoing although I understand David is no longer leading it but is still heavily involved.

True malocclusion may well be genetic and recessive in origin but, as with the majority of chinchilla issues, it is not clearly demonstrated through robust, valid research. Our "knowledge" is largely gathered through the anecdotal evidence of long term breeders passing down their experiences and "research" (i.e. observational and breeding trends) to others. I would not be too hasty in dismissing some of the very detailed work breeders/ranchers have written in their breeding/herd books - some of which go back decades.
There are certainly other factors which are involved in the development of dental problems in chinchillas - these factors include but are not limited to: trauma and injury, abnormal tooth wear patterns in older age, illness, calcium and other mineral deficiencies (for example, multiple breed backs seen in rescues often results in malocclusion and bone demineralisation or lack of bone density as evidenced on Xray examination etc), and malnutrition.
 
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If you read on of the links you listed above the one on chinchillas .com you will find that Laurie selected her intial herd from breeders all over 3 years old whose parents where still alive(puting parents age at at least four) and still had mal ocur in her herd. Any one and everyone can write a FAQ about mal or anything they want and attach it to a forum. Doesn't make it a fact in many cases they are false and misleading.
Once again where is the RESEARCH to back up your claims? I have found nothing in all the links posted. That contradicts or proves the RESEARCH involving over 2500 chins in numerious herds done inaccurate or incorrect. Many claims have been made But yet their is not a single drop of research posted to claim that the research indicating that genetic mal. occurs as late as 6.5 years old is inaccurate.
The claims that mall. only occurs at yound ages also isn't supported by what was found by those who tracked the peds of chins from a particular breeder who all died of mall. In many cases the parents of such chins also died from mall at a age of over three years old. Once again contrary to the claims that it only occurs at a young age.
 
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Dr. Crossleys claim that no research has been done that indicate that genetics is a factor in Mall. Is wrong., The Research has been done and was done on over 2500 animals . So to claim that their is no research indicateing it is not gentic is not accurate.
It has been done and has been published in more then one publication. So to base a assumption on the claim that no research has been done to indicate it is genetic is starting out with a flawed thesis.
 
Doesn't it really all boil down to the cold hard fact that "THEY SHOULD NOT BE BRED AT ALL". I guess my question is why so many of you don't want to accept research done so many years ago? These were leaders of our industry then and respected in the industry. Why would you even take a chance passing this on in your herd? Yes, accidents can cause malo, but for the majority of the time we believe it is heriditary. The reference Luke is referring to is very interesting reading if you can read it sometime, it wasn't written by some fly by night chin owner. They are culled in our herd at the first signs. There was some very good research done at one time on this as Luke has said.
 
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