Bonding Frustration

[deliamaj]

Okay so a lot of similar questions have been asked and I read all the replies but I didn't feel like most of them applied to my situation? So here it is, in lots of detail (sorry it's so long but I am really hoping for some specific feedback on their particular behaviors.)

I have had my chins Elena and Tseng (bonded altered male/female pair) since last September. So about 8 or 9 months. After a few months Elena stopped being completely terrified of me, but there haven't really been any bonding advances since then. When I got them the foster family who was taking care of them said that it should be okay if I gave them extra treats for a week or two to help get them to trust me. But when I toned down on the treats, since I know over treating them isn't healthy, they started to lose interest in me. I found something healthy they could eat more frequently but they still considered a "treat" - alfalfa. This seems to have backfired. When I enter their room or come near the cage, they run to the bars but all they want is food.

When they are out Tseng will come to me and beg. If I don't give him anything he walks away. Elena will not even approach me unless she thinks I have given Tseng a treat and she wants one too. If I give her something she won't eat it near me. If I don't, she runs off. If I move too suddenly to offer something to her (or for any reason) she takes off running. After some work I trained Tseng to jump in my lap, but again, if I have nothing for him, he's gone. They are just completely uninterested in me whatsoever unless I have food.

Then there is the holding thing. They do not like to be held or picked up or really touched at all. Elena takes off running if I even reach toward her. Once in a while if Tseng is really into eating something I can pet him very softly. I try to do this as often as he will let me to get him used to my hands. We had a major setback when he got sick and stopped eating. I had to grab him and hold him still to syringe feed him. He has not forgotten.

I tried that thing where you hold your hand in the cage to try to get them to (eventually) jump on it. This does not work on them. The only time it sort of worked it took Elena 45 minutes to decide to try climbing on and I lifted her out of the cage and she leaped from my hands in a panic the second she cleared the cage door. She never tried that again. Tseng developed his own response. Once he established that I had no food and his only way out of the cage was with my help, he went to sleep in a corner. Even playtime was not worth being carried. (And this was before he got sick!) I have pretty much given up on trying this method. Are there any other ways that might work better?

I just have no idea how to train them at all. I can't think of any positive reinforcement but a treat and this has not had the desired effect, and I don't want to use negative reinforcement because they do not need to be even more afraid of me (anyway I think it's been clinically proven that negative reinforcement doesn't work as well.) I'm at a loss at this point. I know chins aren't fuzzy teddy bears to be carried around but I would at least like them to be interested in my presence for some reason other than food, and I would like to know I can pick them up if necessary without having to find gloves (Tseng bites when he's angry). Everyone says having a pet is supposed to be this rewarding experience but it gets really depressing being either considered a food dispenser or ignored all the time.

Any advice would be appreciated. Sorry this was a novel but lots of facts seemed relevant. Thanks,

Dani
(mom to Elena, Tseng, Max, and Rudy)

 

[Amy's chins]

Hey, sorry to hear you having that problem, first of all I can only give you what my own experience is, unfortunately chins are a bit shy and can take a while to take to you, I have had mine for two years and still won't allow me to pick them up however when I go to cage they run down as they think they getting treats, only one of mine will jump on to my hand but that's only when it suits him, by the sounds of it your doing everything right it can just take time but they might never jump on your hand as its just their nature they all have their own personality, to get them out cage instead of trying to catch then I use a small cage and hold it up to big one with their bath inside so the jump in wee cage then I shut door and take them to where I let them out but I just leave door open and let them come out their self.. when I first got them one if them wouldn't move and cried all the time but he's is so much better as time goes on but he still won't come on to my hand or let me pick him up, just try be patient and do what your doing and you will see they will start to get better .. hope that helps a bit xxx

 

[lilcutie0480]

Okay, first don't be frustrated it takes time with chins. I've been a chin ice mom for over a decade & some of the behaviors you described mine still does it. So since you we're so detailed ill break my response into sections as well.

It took me about 6-12months before we were bonded. I would be curious what environment they were exposed to prior to you. Chin's are not naturally trusting like cats/dogs but they also shouldn't be terrified by you. Treats & attention are the best ways to train a chin. So here's where you must be careful make sure it's good treats (ex. Rose hips, old fashioned oats, apple sticks, papaya) & the reason so many express caution with "over treating" a chin is because their like children. They will eat all the treats you give them instead of pellets/hay. So just ensure you put a max # & incorporate attention as part of the treat. The only issue I have with alfalfa hay it's fatty hay & harder for their bodies to break down. So I like the idea of using it as a treat but use caution with it as well. As they get older I would slowly reduce the amount b/c just like us their little bodies can't process the food like when their were young kits. Also when they run to the bars is it every time you enter the room? They may just want your attention. A lot of times they just want our verbal attention & talking to them.

While you are trying to bond/train I would recommend not using treats during play time. Work on the bonding with the treats in the cage only. However, in that same breath make sure you are playing with them. Lay down on the floor, let them jump on you without trying to reach out. The more available you are during play time will also bond you with them. They will start to use you like a jumping perch & get used to your presence outside the cage too. The running away during playtime is completely normal. My little guy still does that & he's 12yrs old. He does it more because he doesn't want to go in the cage yet. This is also a great time to start verbally rewarding them when they answer to their names during play time. It sounds crazy but the more you talk with them the more comforting your voice is to them.

I'm so sorry to hear your little guy was sick. That was probably very traumatizing to you both. So the holding thing, it takes time. I'm sorry that's the theme with my reply but chins naturally feel like prey so they don't trust easily. I hold my little guy every night, the length of time varies depending on his mood. I started with giving treats outside the cage He stopped eating (hay & pellets) but still took treats on through the bars, then would put a treat on my palm, then I slowly moved it up higher & higher on my arm. This process was slow but worth the results. Once I'd get him up my arm I would offer my hand/palm with a treat to jump into outside the cage. Even now he jumps in my hands to go out & play. However, he doesn't feel safe just jumping into just one hand he prefers when I present both together.

I understand being frustrated but look back a what you've already accomplished. They were terrified of you, now the go racing to the bars when you come in the room, Tseng will jump on your lap & let you hold him. I know it doesn't seem like much but when you look back you've accomplished a lot. Hang in there & I hope this helps.

 

[carmen holt]

I guess I am one of the lucky chin owners I have mine now 4 month I carry him around he lets me pick him up and pet him from his head to his tail..when out on playtime he walks all over my sits on my head I talk to him a lot and give him lots of attention

 

[deliamaj]

I am also curious about their previous environment because I got them from a foster family who was unable to give me much information, other than they have previously been on wire bottom cages because of the state of their feet. I guess I might be pretty lucky, they could have come from something much worse.* Amy I'm sorry about your little guy who cried when you first got him, I'm glad he's much better now.

Tseng does jump on me when I sit with him on the floor . When I used to allow them on the bed they would run up and down my back while I was laying there. I have a blanket I can put on the floor to lay on if it will help.

I am wondering if Elena runs so much when she is out because she has excess energy. I am considering getting her a wheel for the cage. Maybe if she is calmer she will be more open to bonding.

I don't really know how to teach them their names.* You mentioned verbal rewards for responses, however I have never been able to get either of them to respond to my voice. Despite saying the word every time I give them one, they do not respond to 'treat'. But they don't ever really acknowledge that I am speaking. It's like they don't think the sound of my voice has anything to do with them. I know they are not deaf because the rattle of the treat jar or the sound of the bath house contacting the floor gets their immediate attention. I try to say bath, go home, come out, play, treat, whenever those things happen but it doesn't seem to have made the slightest impression on them.* It's really really weird.

I might post that last part in a new thread because it seems like a related but separate issue.

Thanks a lot for the responses!

 

[lilcutie0480]

I was wondering how things were going for you. Yes, I'm thinking the previous environment wasn't very attentive which would lead them to take even a little longer to trust.

I would definitely put the blanket down on the floor & let him jump all over you. This builds trust plus my little guy will look for me if I'm not down on the floor for him.

It's very possible she has more energy. I wouldn't recommend a wheel but rather a saucer. Wheels tends to be too small for chins & can create back issues. Maybe try including more selves/ledges. My little guy loves his ledges & will run all round his cage bouncing off the ledges.

Bonding is tricky & every chin is very different. She may bond better with more exercise. I would treat bonding time complete separate from play time & chin's strive on routine. So if you could try to bond at around the same time every night that may help too.

Specific examples of how I trained my guy to know his name. This is going to sound excess but it worked for me. I would repeat his name over & over to him while holding him. Anytime I would greet him I would use his name & greet him multiple times throughout the day. If he acknowledged me he got a smile, sweet voice & petting under his chin (favorite spot). While he was out playing I would consistently say his name requesting he come to me. When he did he would get a treat or some verbal positive reinforcement. It takes time, plus chins are very intuitive & listen to your tone of voice. Once the chins recognize the tones & pitches of your voice mean certain things it will seem like it happened over night. I promise it's so worth the pay off.