New Recessive White Mutation?

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Ronda showed me the Viophires when I was there last time. They look different than a Violet or Sapphire. As I breeder, I wouldn't want to mess with them personally, but their color is quite stunning.

It wouldn't be hard to test if an animal is in fact a viophire, especially if you have both violets and sapphires on hand. Put the animal with a violet and if you get violet kits (no carriers as both parents would contribute violet genes), you know that animal is for sure violet. Put same animal with a sapphire and if you get sapphire kits (no carriers as both parents would contribute sapphire genes), you now that animal is also for sure sapphire.

The white looks like a fairly nice animal to me...a little too yellow for my liking, but that could be the picture. Who knows why he's selling her (at that price, money would be my guess). I am curious to see if this does in fact turn out to be a new mutation. I'm not sure where they'd fit in in the grand scheme of things since they do not have any special look to them, but it is interesting.
 
I would think the reason to sell this animal right now, without having bred the line and tracked the genetics, is precisely because the line hasn't been bred and the genetics haven't been tracked. The price tag is for the potential - not the proof. With rare/new mutations being all the rage overseas (I admit, I wouldn't mind working on one), this is a great opportunity to develop one without having to chance waiting for one to pop up in your own herd.

However, we don't know anything about it. Don't know if it's dominant, recessive, a new mutation, or even a mutation at all (it could be an environmental fluke - it's curious to me that ALL the kits produced from this pair (so far) have been white.) If they bred the line and didn't produce any more whites for generations, the potential would be gone.

But then again, if this does prove to be a reproduceable mutation, this is a once-in-a-lifetime chance to get chin zero.
 
I will have to agree with someones comment about this line up going over seas. Seem's like Jim found a genetic "hiccup" in his animals and has been working with them. And offering a few to people who want to start something new and exciting.

All of us who breed wish for something new and exciting. But many of us working with very small numbers don't have the luxury. Or the medium size rancher has his/her doors closed to work on improving the new genetics.

Best of luck to him and everyone else who keeps the American economy wheel greased. Lord knows Ohio's people can benefit from his high auction prices. That money trickles down to the mills, wire companies, local retailers ect with his purchases. :thumbsup:
America benefits from his high prices to those buyers out of the country and he has taken the time to improve good animals. Just wish I could afford one or two of his animals. But my budget at the present time keeps other fine breeders in coinage. Hee Hee
 
Alex-

You could afford his prices. You just need to go to his ranch to get the prices you can afford-not go through the auction. Remember he is splitting the money to some degree between himself and Laurie.
 
But then again, if this does prove to be a reproduceable mutation, this is a once-in-a-lifetime chance to get chin zero.
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I think the key word there is IF.

There are a lot of ranchers who have very nice animals for sale, even ones who don't put them on .com and if you can deal with them directly in most cases you will get a better deal.
 
Who knows why he's selling her
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To pay off that post Christmas credit card bill.;)

What I find more interesting is that there are zero bids on the auction. So from what I see the demand to work with a "brand new" mutation is not there. In fact I didn't see any bids on any of the current auctions. Maybe just the economy? Or is it like driving a new car off the lot, by the time you hit the 3rd mile you've just used up 25% of the car's initial value. :D
 
Well that's kind of how it is actually. Even if you produced 5 more kits all just like it, what is the chance you'll be able to sell those kits for that price, or even..> $5000.. $2000... anyone? Anyone? Especially with no guarantee you'd be able to do anything with it. If it is a true recessive gene you'll have to pair her with a male, hope you get a male if she breeds, grow it out, and breed her back to it to get another white. It's a long and time consuming process before you show any results, definitely not a "quick money maker" there.
 
As someone who checks the auction site daily - there are very few bids on any of the animals, even the angoras. This female has been already been relisted once and I don't actually expect her to sell for that price, nor do I think .COM expects her to sell for it... but if someone is willing to pay that much, overseas or not, it doesn't hurt them at all to hold her at that price for a bit.
 
Genetically this is a very strange situation, and I personally do not think it is a recessive. Mom and dad are not related as far back as the records provided on the site. That means IF this were indeed a recessive it would be a very old mutation to have found it's way into two distinct line in the herd. Problem with that is for this pairing to produce 100% white offspring they would both need to be homozygous for this mutation. Since we are now assuming it is a old mutation since it is in two different lines this creates a problem. The parents should both be white.

Either the offspring so far have been a fluke of probability and standard offspring will start to appear in which case this could be a recessive, or this "mutation" lies with the mother being either a new mutation that took place in her genome or some sort of strange expression of our standard white genes. The later is my guess at the moment going by the phenotype of the animals, but I am far from certain. It will be interesting to see where this goes.
 
tunes said:
Ick. I don't even think that sapphires are that great yet. Why would you slap them together with a violet?
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That's why I'm slapping them together with nice big standards to make carriers, hopefully viophire carriers.

The original animals producing the viophires came from part of Carole Kessler's herd and I have no info on how she developed them and no pedigrees.

So far I've only offered one up for PRIVATE sale to help develop the line and the price was no where near $7000.00.

I'd rather develop their genetics than kill them... Is anybody suggesting I kill them?

Ronda
 
Is anybody suggesting I kill them?
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Yes, that's definitely what we're all suggesting. Pretty much everybody on this forum says "kill all chinchillas who have crappy breeding." Aren't most largely pet oriented forums that way?

Nobody said kill anything. What I said was ick, what a nasty combination, considering that sapphires aren't even a decent animal yet as far as fur quality and size in most cases. I just couldn't imagine anyone putting these two mutations together on purpose.
 
Godins Chinchillas said:
Alex-

You could afford his prices. You just need to go to his ranch to get the prices you can afford-not go through the auction. Remember he is splitting the money to some degree between himself and Laurie.
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Grins big and chuckles to self.........Now why would I do that Jessica when I have two beautiful girl kits coming from you next spring. And Cat75 has that pretty standard from Becky that SHOULD OF BEEN MINE at the claim show if the husband hadn't put his foot down about adding another. I just don't understand him. I have one pair in breeding and your girls comming. Did he think I was just going to admire them? :hilarious:

Men! :wacko: Bless their hearts.
 
Well if Peggy had that theory then wouldn't all poorly furred animals with pedigrees be put down too... no need for rescues!
 
Hmm, interesting. Phenotypically, it looks exactly like a regular dominant white (Wilson). I don't really see the value in this animal though... you can get animals that look just like that who are dominant whites and can be improved much more quickly. This new recessive white though, because of the nature of recessive genes, takes longer to make progress (as well as more white offspring). I just think that for a rancher, it would be more profitable to breed the dominant whites instead of spending the extra time recessives need to produce these new recessive whites which look exactly like our dominant whites.
 
...Its a white.... We do have whites, right? In my thinking the only way this would be a spectacular discovery is only if this could possibly create dominant homo whites. Otherwise what can this white offer to mutation chinchillas that we dont already have?
 
Chinmandan said:
...Its a white.... We do have whites, right? In my thinking the only way this would be a spectacular discovery is only if this could possibly create dominant homo whites. Otherwise what can this white offer to mutation chinchillas that we dont already have?
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Since this is a recessive white, the only way one could get white offspring is if it is homozygous and if it is heterozygous it will look just like a standard. In my opinion, it is less valuable than the whites we already have.
 
When it comes to WHITES,and questions on breading whites,and coming up with the best white aninmals,Who has the best whites in the bis???ask the man with 20 wins.Hands down when it comes to everything there is to know about white's and breeding them and there history,he would know
 
aznmexaggie said:
Since this is a recessive white, the only way one could get white offspring is if it is homozygous and if it is heterozygous it will look just like a standard. In my opinion, it is less valuable than the whites we already have.
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The debate is whether or not this is even a recessive. The line hasn't been worked with enough to know if this is just a re-occurrence of the wilson white or if it is something else. If you notice, it is not listed as a recessive white...the recessive is simply speculation since nobody knows very much about the line.

It's not a spectacular find in my opinion since we already have whites and the benefits of a homozygous white don't outweigh all the work that's been put into developing the white mutation so far.
 
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