Looking for credible sources for technical questions

[Geistkatze]

I was in a discussion with others on a different site, trying to help make up a good treats FAQ for chinchillas. I gave them what information I know (such as hindgut fermentation, information of their cousin degus, and ill effects of sugar), but some still have technical questions I cannot answer, such as the following:

Question 1: "In theory, if sugars are such a problem to chinchillas, nobody should be feeding grains (ie, shreddies and oats) either since they're complex sugars which could cause the same problems." And, why does sugar from fruits (raisins, papaya, strawberries etc) cause GI stasis and bloat, but sugars found naturally in their diet do not?

Question 2: "Rabbits and guinea pigs are both hind gut fermenter that can have natural sugars without much problem -- although massive amounts can cause issues. I'm curious about the anatomical differences that allow that to happen!"

Question 3: Does sugar cause cavities in chinchillas? Or does the growing out of teeth negate this?

If more questions can come up, I'll post them as we go along. BEFORE YOU ANSWER: pretend this is high school all over again and you must cite credible websites for each of your answers, as they would like to see articles, peer-reviewed papers, or research that supports your answers. Hope I'm not being too demanding, I would just like the help out these people! )

Thank you, and I hope this post will dig up a lot of useful links and consolidate a lot of information on "the raisin debate". I'd also like to say I've run quite a few searches (here and google) and found information for some of these, but no actual sources- just because I know these questions have probably been beaten into the ground, and I don't want to seem superfluous

 

[Claire D]

Firstly, it's great that you want to help these people but I am going to say that no-one should have to do research for anyone else on another forum/site - that just annoys the heck out of me (sorry, but it does - it's like plagiarism) because it is laziness - if these people want "technical" answers then they can join this forum & post here.

If more questions can come up, I'll post them as we go along. BEFORE YOU ANSWER: pretend this is high school all over again and you must cite credible websites for each of your answers, as they would like to see articles, peer-reviewed papers, or research that supports your answers. Hope I'm not being too demanding, I would just like the help out these people! )

This is not high school. Why do they need spoon feeding?
If I can find the answers without too much effort, then so can anyone else - I would suggest that people are after an argument rather than good sources which simply require a bit of thought - the answers are available should they actually wish to find them.


Having said that ......................

Question 1: "In theory, if sugars are such a problem to chinchillas, nobody should be feeding grains (ie, shreddies and oats) either since they're complex sugars which could cause the same problems." And, why does sugar from fruits (raisins, papaya, strawberries etc) cause GI stasis and bloat, but sugars found naturally in their diet do not?

I'd suggest your requesters look up the basics of hindgut fermentation & the differences between simple sugars & complex carbohydrates. Most of the 'scientific' understanding on hindgut fermentation comes from horses but the basics are there for anyone to find.
Some examples:
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/livestk/01818.html
http://blog.easycareinc.com/blog/duncs-diatribe/0/0/carbs-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly
http://www.merricks.com/digestion.html

Carbohydrate digestion: http://www.tarleton.edu/Faculty/henneke/324%20Carbohydrate%20Digestion.pdf

Question 2: "Rabbits and guinea pigs are both hind gut fermenter that can have natural sugars without much problem -- although massive amounts can cause issues. I'm curious about the anatomical differences that allow that to happen!"

Good luck with that one - there's little true research done on chins & it's not about anatomy per-se but about the ability of chinchillas to digest a rich diet (which is what fruits, veggies, etc are in this case) as well as the effects of simple sugar overload on a hindgut fermenter.
There are also differences in nutritional requirements between the species - for example, G'pigs cannot synthesize Vitamin C &, therefore, need a diet which is rich in that specific vitamin.
I find it interesting that people acknowledge that "massive" amounts of sugars affect rabbits & G'pigs - since they thrive on a (relatively) rich diet & chins have a digestive system which is designed to cope with a dry, bland, nutrient poor, high fibre diet I'd suggest the answers are already known.


Do chinchillas need grains as a treat? No, probably not - treats are more for our benefit than the animals - but complex carbohydrate treats (mini shredded wheat, oats) are high in fibre & that is one of the keys.

Question 3: Does sugar cause cavities in chinchillas? Or does the growing out of teeth negate this?

Yes & no. Look up any David Crossley article on chinchilla dental disease & the answers to these questions are there. Again, a simple search is all that is needed.
http://www.vetdent.eu/research/chinch.html

 

[ticklechin]

Bloat and stasis are huge problem in the rabbit world, you see it WAY more there than in the chinchilla world, GEE wonder why since those that own rabbits think its cool to feed fruits and veggies, or so it seems. When I first dealt with bloat years and years ago, the forum members of CNQ had very little advice since they had not really dealt with it, I turned to the rabbit world and the local rabbit rescues for advice.

 

[ticklechin]

And also, some forums will just not listen to good chinchilla advice. One member will spout out bad advice, you can correct them all you want but the rest will just fall in line behind them, even when you provide ALL the research in the world, they are "right" and you are wrong and research be dang-ed.

 

[Geistkatze]

Thanks for your help! I explained best I could but they still wanted more information ) I just wanted to get the resources, because if you want something done, do it yourself- you know?

I figure they wanted credible sources because why should they take my word (as thought out as it was)? Common sense is hardly common but I'm not about to analyze their reasons. Almost everyone there feeds raisins once or twice a day, so I'm in a small minority of treat-giving (I only feed a cheerio or pinch of oats 3x a week or less).

I really do appreciate your help. Myself and another person directed them to this forum, so perhaps they will read up and lurk themselves.

 

[menagerie]

Bloat and stasis are huge problem in the rabbit world, you see it WAY more there than in the chinchilla world, GEE wonder why since those that own rabbits think its cool to feed fruits and veggies, or so it seems. When I first dealt with bloat years and years ago, the forum members of CNQ had very little advice since they had not really dealt with it, I turned to the rabbit world and the local rabbit rescues for advice.

I have a lot of friends in the San Diego House Rabbit Society and they are of the opinion that sugar filled foods, even natural ones, are not acceptable. Those that adhere to the low sugar diets have few cases of bloat. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[3CsMommy]

Firstly, it's great that you want to help these people but I am going to say that no-one should have to do research for anyone else on another forum/site - that just annoys the heck out of me (sorry, but it does - it's like plagiarism) because it is laziness - if these people want "technical" answers then they can join this forum & post here.

This is not high school. Why do they need spoon feeding?

Just as some context for the discussion, it's taking place in a Live Journal group that essentially functions like Yahoo!Answers, and consequently a lot of inaccurate information surfaces there (in this case, that a raisin or two a day is an acceptable treat diet). I've been a member there, sending people here or to the old forum (by occasionally spoon-feeding them answers as examples) to get the best possible chin information, since I got into chins 4-5 years ago.

With so much misleading and just plain wrong information about chins available online, I've found that putting a name and story with a source ("Here's my healthy, happy, spoiled rotten rescue chin and here's why I've decided to do what I do") is more attractive and trustworthy as an information source than the list or article style care sheets a lot of (admittedly very well informed and accurate) owners post on their websites. It seems to function a bit like the mentorship so many breeders encourage new breeders to seek when they start in chins, or the relationship I developed with Crash's rescue before my ex and I brought "our" chin home. For someone new to chins, or not particularly skilled at research, a nudge like ^this is a great help onto the right path. And I see nothing wrong with posting signs to the best information and resources about chins in any place they crop up in conversation. I'm biased, of course, but I love to brag about my boy(s), and this forum is worth talking about too.

 

[menagerie]

I understand that you are trying to help chins and people on another venue. But you should be doing your own homework and not asking others to provide the information for you.

 

[ticklechin]

Nothing drives me more nuts than those that answer questions like they are a authority of all things chins and their answers prove and they lack the basic knowledge of chinchilla anatomy and physiology, nutrition and basic medical care. Just because you can answer does not mean you should.

 

[Claire D]

Just as some context for the discussion, it's taking place in a Live Journal group that essentially functions like Yahoo!Answers, and consequently a lot of inaccurate information surfaces there (in this case, that a raisin or two a day is an acceptable treat diet).

The "discussion" was not hard to find - the comments in reply to the information I have provided made me laugh - it beautifully illustrates that when you provide someone else's information you can't argue the point, clarify or back it up.


On that note I will ask the OP to remove my information from the LJ discussion (since you gave that option to the LJ members) & instead simply provide a link to this thread instead - that way, if interested parties wish to discuss the subject further we can do so.

 

[Geistkatze]

Sure, no problem.

I did post explanations- but the problem was I had no concrete sources besides "this lady on this forum said x" and definitions to things such as "hindgut fermentation" and the like.

 

[Claire D]

Sure, no problem.

Thank you

I did post explanations- but the problem was I had no concrete sources besides "this lady on this forum said x" and definitions to things such as "hindgut fermentation" and the like.

No, I appreciate that - what I see it here is you're going to get stuck in the middle, trying to provide info for both sides & thats a hard thing to do - now, however, if people really want to ask more & post their point of view they can & we can answer directly. :thumbsup:

 

[3CsMommy]

I've thought about how to reply to the above for the last hour. I think I've settled on apologizing for inconveniencing or annoying you with my attempt to share a useful resource with others for the sake of their pets' health and safety.

 

[Claire D]

II think I've settled on apologizing for inconveniencing or annoying you with my attempt to share a useful resource with others for the sake of their pets' health and safety.

You are misunderstanding my intent & misinterpreting my posts. I am neither annoyed nor inconvenienced. For that matter I am also not in the least bitter.
I have no problem with sharing resources with others for the sake of their pets' health and safety. After all, that is why this forum exists & why members continue to post with help, support, advice, & knowledge.
Despite the fact that people go out of their way to help others & provide information for the benefit of the chinchillas' health, safety & general wellbeing, what often gets thrown back is how elitist we are, how defensive we are, how horrible we are because we don't answer with fluff, hearts & flowers etc - as is happening on that thread right now.

My issue is with things being taken out of context & being put on one end of a game of "telephone tag" with a middle man relaying information back & forth. Since my answers were taken verbatim I asked for them to be removed as a courtesy & also so that the discussion could take place on a forum with a spread of knowledgeable people (i.e. here). That IMHO would be more beneficial than simply posting my replies to the questions (which did not seem to meet the requirements anyway) & allows for better communication.

TBH I don't see why asking for a link to be posted to here is causing such drama. *shrug*

 

[tunes]

I have always found those mailing lists to be complete garbage, and frankly, I don't understand how they function. You can't have a "live" discussion like you can on a forum or in chat as we do here on occasion. Mostly they just confuse me with 300 separate emails showing up in my inbox with just a comment "Yeah! That's what I said!" Huh?

I don't think those lists are conducive to coherent information. I've been on 3 of them. I quit them all because they made me nuts.

3Cs - Since I've been on the receiving end of a comment like this from you, I'm going to reply on Claire's behalf. I think you took her comments completely out of context and got offended by them for absolutely no reason. You seem to think that a comment like this is a personal attack, and it just isn't. I agree 100% with Claire on doing your own research, in as much as it is possible. It would be SO much better if they just joined the forum and took part in a conversation that actually makes sense. It's okay to say "I want articles on this and this" but it rarely happens. There just isn't a huge amount of information out there on chins in the first place. Then, read some of the articles in the information section. A onesie, twosie chin owner who stuffs their chins with raisins and fruits and veggies is not going to read those articles A) with an open mind, or B) with any form of understanding. Some of those articles get darned technical and without discussion, THIS kind of discussion, they are going to make no sense at all. I very much appreciate Geistkatze's position in this. I was on Yahoo answers for 2 years trying to correct misinformation and draw people to the forum, to the point where I seemed to be spending a majority of my day on there. All you could do was give the correct answer, then watch as people said "Oh, she doesn't care, she's a BREEDER", or "She doesn't know what she's talking about, she's just in it for pelting." I would refer every last one of them to this forum. Some came and stayed, and benefitted from it. Others came, got pissed off because we wouldn't condone them feeding 18 raisins a day to their chin because they "look so CUTE when they beg!" But, if nothing else, I've seen those same people who say they left on line at least reading the forum, so I'm hopeful they are gathering up some good information.

I think Claire's point is a good one. Telephone never ends up with the information in the same way as it started out. Getting answers here and then posting them there gives the person here no way to rebut a comment or argue a point. Frankly, I wouldn't bother because I hate those lists. I know Claire is an administrator of a very large UK forum, as well as a smaller one, a buddy on here, and in addition works full-time and has her own life and herd to focus on. She's not going to follow along on that mailing list to see that whatever she says is taken in the context it was meant. I know I wouldn't bother either. There's only so much you can do in a day.

 

[3CsMommy]

My (admittedly badly worded) apology wasn't aimed at you, Claire. I'm sorry that it seems that way. I thought the barb about know-it-all pet owners talking too much was a pretty obvious one, though from another user. (When I read the page initially "the above" wasn't Claire's request or Geistkatze's answer.)

And I understand the point that second and third hand information is harder to interpret. But, neither Geistkatze nor I came here saying "tell us what to tell them". She posted looking for any veterinary articles, breeder club links, etc. that offer the information first hand to pass along on LJ. I only chimed in when I saw the discussion starting to turn toward the giant mess these situations always do. Pet owners ask, breeders and rescuers answer, and inevitably someone makes a comment about "doing your own homework" or "this has been answered before" or "if you don't already know it, don't talk about it" that puts someone on the defensive.

If you'd like more information about why I said what I said, Peggy, feel free to PM or email.

Claire, again, I'm sorry that seemed personal. It wasn't intended for you. You've been very patient and polite.

 

[ticklechin]

Read my "barb" again, I did not say pet owner. It was directed towards those that just because they have a bizzillion chins show in the advice given they lack basic knowledge of chinchillas. These people are "breeders" and rescue chins also, but no matter they are corrected again and again they bully on with bad advice that is down right dangerous. And since they have a bizzillion, newbies think they MUST be right, quantity does not equal quality. At least here there are many many people who can over power bad advice.

 

[3CsMommy]

Nothing drives me more nuts than those that answer questions like they are a authority of all things chins and their answers prove and they lack the basic knowledge of chinchilla anatomy and physiology, nutrition and basic medical care. Just because you can answer does not mean you should.

In the wake of "do your own homework" comments (which is what we're trying to do), reading that seemed like a pretty clear opinion that we shouldn't talk about it unless we've already researched it to the same level as a long time breeder or rescuer. "People that answer questions like they are an authority of all things chins though their answers prove they lack the basic knowledge..." isn't terribly specific, and you're talking to two pet owners here that *don't* know as much about anatomy and nutrition as we could. (At least one of whom admitted in the other group reply that she doesn't have a lot of sources memorized).

I apologize that I misinterpreted that as a personal jab.

 

[ticklechin]

Most, if not all, pet owners here that are new-ish to chins but want to help, qualify their answers with the statment that they are not "experts", which is good, they have read enough about chins to offer advice but if the need for answers goes beyond their knowledge they leave it to those that know more in depth on the subject at hand. Those people are not who I am referring to.