Help me make the right decision?

[Magic_FROST]

We have had this little guy for about six months now. He came in in okay shape, not terrible but not great save for the injury. He was underweight, but eating junk food. Never had hay in his two year life. He got caught between the bars of their old cage--was stuck there between two and six hours. Eventually found and pulled out by the owners. He had a lacerated cornea and some trauma to his ears (no blood but scrapes and curling) There was no $$ for a vet visit so he was surrendered to us.

He was seen and was prescribed the "usual" by our vet. He got a shot of baytril in the very beginning. That caused some problems, and that along with the stress of the move of him from theirs into our house resulted in bloat. We were able to get that under control after a hellish several weeks. After the bloat ordeal the vet prescribed tobramycin drops to clean up the cornea along with saline rinses because the eye hadnt gotten any better after the baytril. The tobra wasnt helping so now he is on a combo anti ointment, and has been for the past several weeks. Vet said no bathing until the eye heals so this little guy hasnt had a bath in 6 months! He looks miserable. And is very guarded.

Its clear he has no sight in that eye. I asked the vet to consider removing the eye, but he is unwilling to do so until this little guy stops losing weight because he doesnt think the eye is the whole of the problem. Since the baytril, and the resulting bloat, this chin hasnt kept weight on. Xrays were taken, to determine the severity of facial trauma from being stuck in the wire and he had nice teeth actually. No malo and no cavities, despite the diet he was on. Since the vet knows theres no malo and no reason why he should still continue to lose weight, he wont just remove the eye and thinks instead we should consider euthanasia. He surmises that because this chin was underweight when we took him, he may have already been on a decline.

The eye continues to not heal, it has a nice gouge out of it that is that milky blue color. His appetite is very poor, even with CC and handfeeding--he just doesnt want it.

Poop is fine. Pee is fine. Both are smaller amounts than a normal healthy chin, but theyre there and they have both been tested.

He has another appt this Friday. Its the appointment where we are suppossed to decide whether or not to euth.


I need some opinions. Should I go ahead and ask for more treatment? Should I be very forceful and ask that the eye be removed? We have a couple chins who have been adopted that only had one eye. Should I ask for a specific med? Should we really consider euthanasia? Willing to entertain all ideas.

 

[Sycamore Chins]

Do you have any pics and more specifics regarding his weight? Approximately how old is he?
Has he had full body x-rays recently?
Have you added anything to the CC to make it more appealing? We personally add apple juice (w/ no sugar added) for the picky ones.

To help with with the dust bath, you can take a little tiny bit of dust and rub it into his fur, and just stay away from his head. Anything will make him feel better than nothing

I'll see if I can think of anything else while studying for pathology.

 

[menagerie]

What problems did the baytril cause? Injectible baytril would not cause bloat. I would opt to have his eye removed as I'm sure it is causing him a lot of pain which could be why he isn't interested in eating.

Did the vet do whole body xrays or just head? Can you post the xrays here?

 

[Claire D]

A 'shot' of Baytril should not cause bloat..... oral Baytril, possibly (affecting gut flora). An injection; no.
In fact, it is more likely that the change of diet caused the bloat, not the Baytril (either injectable or oral).
Did the chin receive probiotics during the food change?

Is the chin on pain medication?
A chin in pain will not eat, will be lethargic & will generally appear miserable.

The weight loss is a definite concern - how much OCC are you getting into this chin per day? Is he eating anything by himself? How much does he weigh?

Have you tried scattering healthy no sugar foods around his cage? A mini shredded wheat broken into bits, some alfalfa, a few rolled oats, some apple twigs, a couple of pieces of rosehip shell, tasty hays ........

 

[ticklechin]

I sounds like he has given up to me and does not want to go on, he is in pain and when there is pain there will be no weight gain unless ungodly amounts of CC are fed, they may still lose weight even if fed over 120ml a day. I may have missed it but is he on any pain meds, something heavy duty like tramadol or buprenex, I don't think metecam would do any good here. If you could get the pain under control there may be progress, but if not he is on a downward spiral. Hate to be a Debbie downer but that is your situation.

 

[Magic_FROST]

Okay, here goes.

SycamoreChins-
He is two years old. I dont have pics of the x-rays...we've never been given them? They are in his file, though, that much I know. We dont add anything to the critical care, only water and probiotic powder. We were told anything added could cause yeast and sugar to form again and he would be back to bloated.

Menagerie-
He got an injection of baytril the same day he was surrendered. He also got three days of oral baytril after the injection, for a total of four days of treatment.

Claire-
We think the move made him bloat, but you may be right if the oral Baytril could do it, as he got both. As for pain meds, he was on Meloxicam. He was on it a month. He wont eat ANYTHING on his own currently. As of last weigh this morning he is a little less than 306gms. I get all the CC into him that I can....he just does not want it. He has never had hay before in his life, and he did nibble at a few alfalfa strands over the weekend, but that was it. He also ate HALF a flower petal this past friday. There was no diet switch from his old food, as he went onto CC right away. We do add probiotic powder to the CC.

Riven-
Tell me what to ask for, and I will get it for him. If you give me the amount and dosage, I can get it immediately. This is a situation where my vet would call in anything to any pharmacy in town and we could get it. The vet has given up hope too, I think.

 

[Magic_FROST]

Oops. Sorry ticklechin....that was you and not Riven.

 

[Claire D]

What was his original weight? He is teeny.

I suspect the bloat was from a food switch - crappy food to OCC. It happens sometimes.

If he's not on pain meds then he should be - he may have an infection behind the eye & he's certainly not going to eat while he is in pain.

I'd be wanting Vetergesic (buprenex) to start off with to see if that makes a difference. I would also be wanting a different vet - one that will be proactive but will also not mess about if there is no other option than euthanasia.

This is a very tough call between allowing the chin to continue on & PTS. Personally I would give him a chance & get some strong pain relief into him & get him fully assessed by a chinchilla competent, proactive vet. If the initial dose of Vetergesic does not help & the spark has gone then I'd be looking seriously at PTS.

 

[Magic_FROST]

No, that was not his original weight....he keeps slipping downwards. I hate that fricken scale....every morning is like a new sadness.

Our vet knows how we get with our animals, the ones we rescue to adopt out and our personal ones. We have special needs all around us, including our personal pets. We have a chin with almost no teeth and arthritis and blind in one eye, one with cancer thats in remission and a few with terminal fatty liver disease just to mention some. All of them are just like this poor guy--they came from crap breeders and even crappier homes.

I have had cases where the prognosis was death, and years later they are still here and happy. So I just dont know if this is a case where we push on in hopes that he will be another happy ending or just quit now. I think we will try one more bout with a strong painkiller and if he shows ANY sign of wanting of perking up...we'll do more. But, he wont even come out of his hidey hut right now.

 

[Sycamore Chins]

It sounds like he may have something systemic going on. If you are comfortable with giving injections yourself, I would ask your vet about giving baytril injections, along with the pain meds already recommended.

 

[Magic_FROST]

Would doing another round of Baytril work though? He had a total of four days of treatment in the very beginning. One shot, then three days of oral. Could something else have popped up? Very comfortable with injections, we just want to get the best possible med therapy treatment going.

 

[Claire D]

No, that was not his original weight....

I asked "what was his original weight?"

Our vet knows how we get with our animals, the ones we rescue to adopt out and our personal ones. We have special needs all around us, including our personal pets. We have a chin with almost no teeth and arthritis and blind in one eye, one with cancer thats in remission and a few with terminal fatty liver disease just to mention some. All of them are just like this poor guy--they came from crap breeders and even crappier homes.

I have had cases where the prognosis was death, and years later they are still here and happy. So I just dont know if this is a case where we push on in hopes that he will be another happy ending or just quit now. I think we will try one more bout with a strong painkiller and if he shows ANY sign of wanting of perking up...we'll do more. But, he wont even come out of his hidey hut right now.

From your descriptions your chin is miserable, in pain, malnourished, & possibly septic - he needs to be assessed by another vet & given proper pain relief for a start.

ETA: 4 days of Baytril is not enough - he needs a longer course. Again, I'd suggest another vet but I know you don't want to hear that. *shrug*

 

[Sycamore Chins]

4 days of an antibiotic is not effective - that could actually breed resistance in bacteria. Depending on the drug, most antibiotics are given for at least 10-14 days, in order to kill everything.
Bacteria survive in cycles and are found in the body at different stages, 4 days of the antibiotic will most likely not kill all of the cycles.

 

[Magic_FROST]

Sorry, read your reply too fast. His original weigh was above 500 grams, he has the body of a big boy but was already underweight when we got him. His spine could easily be felt.

The Baytril was given as a preventative. He wasnt showing an active infection via blood sample that day. The injury occurred that same day. The four days of baytril were supposed to prevent any?

He had blood and fecals run, and there isnt a rampant infection as told by his white count (at least this is what vet says). The most recent tests were two weeks ago. Should I have more done friday?

He was on metacam for one month, but was taken off due to him getting better from the bloat and the vet thinking that one month for the eye should be enough. I admit I also thought that with the bloat behind him and the metacam gone he would be picking up on healing time and start eating again, which hasnt happened.


I agree he should be on something for pain, I did a forum search and it seems pain can do awful things besides being well, painful. So that is our first part. Can you tell me if the buprenex will affect his appetite?

 

[Sycamore Chins]

There is no preventative action of an antibiotic per se. Antibiotics kill bacteria - that's their job. If there is no bacteria then it simply gets metabolized and excreted. If there is bacteria that are sensitive to the given antibiotic then they will be killed. Baytril isn't stored in the body to be used later when necessary, that is why it is usually given for 10-14 days, to kill any bacteria until the animals immune system is better able to handle things.

How was he doing two weeks ago vs. today? It could be that he has developed an infection since then, or the immune response wasn't developing by then, or he has a weak immune system that cannot mount a response to an infection (therefore no elevated WBCs).

 

[Magic_FROST]

He is still pooping and peeing. He just continues to drop weight, despite the CC literally being given via syringe until he gives up and eats it. He will watch from his post---but he wont willingly come out of his fleece hidey hut. All of his intake is given by hand, this past weekend he nibbled, if one can call eating half a flower and an alfalfa stalk nibbling. He watches from the hut, sleeps during the day and has his good eye looking out for a couple hours at night.

From two weeks ago, he has just lost more weight. No other change from that really.

 

[ticklechin]

Buprenex is a opiod and can make him sleepy, it can also slow the digestive tract so its a good idea to have reglan and propulsid on hand in case it becomes a issue-I had one that is did and one that is didn't. Since the chins that I used it on were in extreme pain the appetite was supressed already. I would get the pain med, use the baytril, at least for 14 days and if this was my chin I would feed 50% critical care and 50% lifeline, the alfalfa based lifeline will help with weight gain IMO from the ones I use it on. How much are you feeding him a day? I would make sure its upward of 100ml if not more.

 

[Magic_FROST]

Thank you very much. I am going to order LL as soon as I get off work. Do they priority ship that? Vet has prescribed Dyne to be added to the CC, should I use all three? The Dyne is waiting for my husband to pick up as soon as he can.

One last question: should we go oral baytril again? Or just ask for the injectable?

 

[Sycamore Chins]

If you're comfortable giving injections it will be SO much better for his system. You will not see the GI issues you do with oral. It's quicker too, IMO.

 

[Magic_FROST]

Is dosage largely based on weight? Only reason I ask is that vet is willing to give script right now if I tell him exactly what I need.....


Added to clarify: His initial dose was 5mg, so wondering if he needs less now that his weight has dropped...but that was the "preventative" dosing so he might need a higher dose now? I have no idea, im just a domestic violence advocate, lol