Weaned male kits?

[Sunnyastounded]

I have read that when 8 weeks come along and you wean your kits that you have to separate the males from the litter. What's the reason for this?

I have two cages (let's call them A and B). My plan is to bring Vienna to A with Snickers. Once Vienna hits that 90ish day mark I'll put her in B to prevent breed backing. Then she'll give birth and stay in B with her kits until they are 8 weeks old. Then I'll put her back in A and keep the kits in B for another 2 weeks. At that time I will sell the kits and the cycle starts over.

How do I address the male separation issue with this plan? Is there anything else wrong with my plan?

Thanks.

 

[greychins]

You mean separate the adult male? Most people simply separate the male so that there's not a breedback and the female isn't trying to carry a litter of kits while nursing another litter of kits.

I know several breeders who give their females a rest and don't breed one after another. I, personally, do not put our females back in breeding right when the kits are removed. To me, I would think that would be stressful for a female to have kits, get the kits weaned, and back in goes the male, then she's pregnant again. No rest, you know? We give ours "time off" between litters.

 

[starleomach]

The problem with that is what happens when Vienna and snickers don't want to be back together? And what if the kits dont sell and she has another litter. And what if one kit is a girl and one is a boy? You will need a 3rd cage.

 

[Brittany]

You need to keep weaned males separate from Mom and female siblings because they can get them pregnant.

You need more then two cages. What if any of the chins start to fight and need to be separated?

 

[mishalaa]

You're going to need more than two cages. The rule of thumb is 3 cages per breeding female. Males have to be separated because they can, and have, gotten their mother and female siblings pregnant - there are two cases I know of where a male kit impregnated a sibling BEFORE 8 weeks. It is not common by any means but it can happen.

Also, you're pushing your luck by removing the male after only 3 months. I have a few pairs that have been together over 6 months and up to a year that have not produced yet. I do not shut the male out until I am certain the female is pregnant.

Thirdly, don't count on being able to sell the kits right away. Maybe you will, likely you won't.

Lastly, I really hope there is a reason you are breeding other than to just sell kits. It doesn't sound like it.

 

[momenteller]

To breeders: I know this is a small detail, but shouldn't the male be the one that gets moved around, rather than the pregnant female?

 

[mishalaa]

The only reason to move a pregnant female would be to put her in a baby safe cage. As someone who has planned the breeding, she should already be in one.

 

[RDZCRanch]

You need 3-4 cages which is why I prefer breeding cages. One thing that a lot of people forget when starting out is the amount of space it takes to raise chinchillas. 3 of the cages have to be baby proof.

You don't always sell chinchillas 2 weeks after weaning. Especially if they are standard grey males, so don't count on them being gone in X amount of days. I've held onto animals as long as 2 years before finding them the right home.

As mentioned already, you have to separate the male kits from their mother and sisters to ensure they do not impregnate them. If there are two male kits, they can be weaned together but you have to separate the babies by gender.

Typically, you don't want to move a pregnant female around, but it won't kill her or the babies to be moved around. I've moved females several times knowing they are expecting and wanting them with another male for the breedback.

 

[greychins]

I suppose I forgot that in my post, but I agree with what everyone else has said. You need more than 2 cages. We have 2 breeding runs of chins (so 8 breeders). We have 5 additional breeding runs that are empty, in addition to several baby-safe cages. We may not need 5 empty ones, but they are there in case we need them.

You can't assume the babies are going to sell "just like that" *snaps fingers*. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. We've had chins here for months, even years in the past. We've had some that start out young, but by the time they leave, they're no longer babies, or even "young." It takes time to find good homes, and if you're concerned about finding good homes that will care for the chins well, you may not have those chins sold within 2 weeks. We get a lot of people contacting us that want to hand over the money and us to hand over the baby chin... and then they want to go feed it popcorn and peanuts and Kaytee food... um, no. We require that people read our chin care packet and fill out an application. We can tell when people haven't read the care packet when the application comes back saying they're going to have plastic shelves, feed Kaytee food, give them a death ball to run in, and so on. Those people don't get to purchase a baby unless they agree to change all that. And many don't want to - they say the pet store is right in everything they sell and they're not going to listen to a breeder over the pet store - fine, but they're not purchasing one of our baby chins.

And I also wouldn't be moving the female around if you can manage. We have our chins in breeding runs - but note, the male is the one getting shut out, not the female. The female is in a baby safe cage 24/7, regardless of whether or not we think she's pregnant. We had one chin gain around 50 grams and out popped a baby. If you'd asked me, I would have said I didn't think she was pregnant (we thought her weight was just fluctuating a bit because we'd moved her from a cage with a wheel into a run, and she wasn't burning off food on the wheel). I didn't think she was pregnant, but we had her in the run, and good thing we did, cause one day there was a little white tail poking out from behind her. You can move the female if you want - but every cage she is going to be in, from the moment she's with a male, needs to be baby safe.

 

[Spoof]

The unspoken rule of chin cages is to have three times the number of holding cages as you do breeding cages.

Unless you have an outlet (eg: petstore) lined up, chins are considered a slow profit [profit(!), :rofl: ].

Over the last two years it has taken me 145.5 days on average to sell a kit that I knew was going to be sold when it was born. Some go right away, some take a year.

 

[Sunnyastounded]

This question has been a big cloud hovering over my head since the moment I considered breeding. I realized that I would have to adapt according to the answer to this question no matter what if I was to breed. Now that I am actually getting closer to introducing the two, I'm making those "last minute" (more like a year!) preparations. Asking this question was one of them and I got the answers I expected and somewhat dreaded (due to feeling like I finally got the cage setups under control).

Question: I cannot wrap my head around the reason for having all three cages baby proofed. Could someone offer more explanation on this matter?
My idea: I have Snickers in A, Vienna in B, and C is baby proofed and empty. Bring Vienna to A until I knew she was pregnant and then put her in C where she will give birth and raise her kits until they are 8 weeks. At that time I move her back to B and I move the male kits in with Snickers (crucial: do male kits and their father get along?) and leave the female kits in C. Until ALL kits are sold, I do not move Vienna back to A with Snickers. With this plan, the only cage the baby kits are in is C. Unless of course the 8 week old males need the same baby proofing.

My replies

All: Extremely helpful and informative. I will be purchasing another cage, taking into account all that was said about how long it will take to sell the kits, and separating the male kits from the female kits at the 8 week mark.

Greychins: I am not going to participate in breed backs. I feel that having to nurse their young and supply for a baby brewing in their tummy seems a bit much. Additionally, I have no desire to increase the production of babies. Vienna and Snickers come far before this small amount of money to help pay for the supplies (and I'm not even saying that to impress you ladies). However, on the rare occasion that my kits are sold by the time that they get weaned, I do believe that I will put Vienna back in with Snickers right away, but nothing is etched in stone. Finally, as for finding the right buyer, this is my top concern. I am an extreme animal lover and I would never intentionally sell one of my babies away to an uneducated or simply bad home. I have already adopted a chin care pamphlet and questionnaire that I personalized and I plan to use those to find the right buyer.

Starleomach: Please get back to me on what you think of my idea written above.

Brittany: Thanks and I will follow your advice.

Mishalaa: Thanks for both the helpful rule and real life examples. To clarify: what I meant by the 90 day mark is the part of her gestation period where she begins showing (enlarged pelvis, lengthening of the nipples). At that point when I found that she was pregnant (or any time before that) I would carefully move her to the baby cage. Finally, that judgmental last sentence was unnecessary and rude. Sure, living animals are at stake, so I can partially see where you're coming from, but do you actually think that a comment like that would sway me if I happened to be the type of person that would breed with poor reasons? On top of all that I think your elitism is showing...

RDZCRanch: Thanks for the well written information, as always! Please criticize my idea written above.

Spoof: Thanks for the bit of humor and the eye opening statistic!

 

[jags]

There are times when they will just not get along which is the reason for extra cages. The male and female may not even get along once separated and then put back together. The female may not even want any part of the kits after a while. The kits may not even tolerate each other once they get to a certain age. Its not the norm but it does happen that some animals need to be caged alone.

 

[Brittany]

Question: I cannot wrap my head around the reason for having all three cages baby proofed. Could someone offer more explanation on this matter?
My idea: I have Snickers in A, Vienna in B, and C is baby proofed and empty. Bring Vienna to A until I knew she was pregnant and then put her in C where she will give birth and raise her kits until they are 8 weeks. At that time I move her back to B and I move the male kits in with Snickers (crucial: do male kits and their father get along?) and leave the female kits in C. Until ALL kits are sold, I do not move Vienna back to A with Snickers. With this plan, the only cage the baby kits are in is C. Unless of course the 8 week old males need the same baby proofing.

The answer is that you may not know for sure that the female is pregnant until she delivers. Kits are mobile soon after birth, so if you aren't there watching them be born you could come home to find dead kits outside the cage. Plus, you shouldn't move mom and stress her out with a new cage right after she's given birth. She's going to be sore and wanting to rest. Another reason for having all the cages baby proof is that even 8 week old kits may be small enough to squeeze through normal sized cage bars. All kits grow differently. One of our knowledgeable forum members bought 8 or 9 week old kits and they escaped on her. She had to deal with that issue in the wee hours of the morning. Her gut told her something was wrong with the chins, and she's lucky that she got up to check and found the escapee right away.

Additionally 8 week old kits are still developing, learning coordination, etc... they need a baby proofed cage with low/close together ledges, no wheel, etc...

Greychins: I am not going to participate in breed backs. I feel that having to nurse their young and supply for a baby brewing in their tummy seems a bit much. Additionally, I have no desire to increase the production of babies. Vienna and Snickers come far before this small amount of money to help pay for the supplies (and I'm not even saying that to impress you ladies). However, on the rare occasion that my kits are sold by the time that they get weaned, I do believe that I will put Vienna back in with Snickers right away, but nothing is etched in stone. Finally, as for finding the right buyer, this is my top concern. I am an extreme animal lover and I would never intentionally sell one of my babies away to an uneducated or simply bad home. I have already adopted a chin care pamphlet and questionnaire that I personalized and I plan to use those to find the right buyer.

You just contradicted yourself there (bolded quotes) even doing it on a rare occasion is breeding back.

In response to the quote in red: If there are complications (100's of things can go wrong) you will be spending much more on medical care then you could ever sell the kits for. C-sections are $500 to over $1000. Cheap medicine is around $15 for a two week supply (most vet's aren't that cheap). You have to get up around the clock, every 2 - 4 hours, to medicate or force feed animals. This means adjusting your work schedule, losing sleep, etc... If you love your pets, then don't put them into a risky situation. When you bought the chins you took on the responsibility of paying for their expenses. Why do you need to sell kits to help pay for supplies? Your job should cover that, or you shouldn't have chins (not trying to be mean, just honest).

People who breed for the right reasons are doing it to improve the species, not to make a profit. Unless you're a huge rancher who's goals include pelting and wholesaling, and even then they're striving for high quality animals to make high quality pelts that are worth something. Do you know the background of your pets? I'm not even going to open the can of worms surrounding a discussion on genetics and health. So far you have not stated one good reason for breeding. With your intentions you're going to have a hard time finding good homes in the chinchilla community. Again not being mean, just honest.

 

[RDZCRanch]

You just contradicted yourself there (bolded quotes) even doing it on a rare occasion is breeding back.

Actually, this is not true. A breedback does not occur right when the kits are weaned, it occurs when the kits are born. Breeding a female right after she weans kits is NOT a breedback.

The reason for having multiple baby proof cages is because kits can escape very small spacing up to 4-6 months depending on how they grow. If they can squish their heads through, they can get their entire bodies through. Also, when breeding, it is better safe than sorry so I personally would baby proof ALL of the cages. There is no reason not to baby proof the cages, but there are plenty of reasons TO baby proof a cage if you intend to breed.

As JAGS mentioned, you do also need additional cages because there is no guarantee that dad will be ok with his male kits or that mom will tolerate her daughters for long periods of time. You cannot have too many cages when breeding. I've never heard a rancher complain (except myself recently) that they have TOO much space or too many empty cages. The most common complaint is that they've run out of cage space and NEED to sell some animals to make room for new babies. More cages are better when you're breeding.

 

[mishalaa]

Finally, that judgmental last sentence was unnecessary and rude. Sure, living animals are at stake, so I can partially see where you're coming from, but do you actually think that a comment like that would sway me if I happened to be the type of person that would breed with poor reasons? On top of all that I think your elitism is showing...

I think that statement was quite necessary because the belief new breeders have that breeding chinchillas is a get rich quick scheme is oft encountered, but not nearly true. However you interpreted it, the reality of selling chinchillas is that the majority of people are impulse buyers. They want the color they want, and they want it 8-10 weeks old, and they want it right away. If you don't have it the moment they're looking to buy, they're going elsewhere. The owners that would take any chin regardless of color or age are more likely to go to a rescue and get a chin that really needs a home, rather than go to a breeder. My point, in short, is you will not make money with just one breeding pair, so I hope you have another reason for doing it. All your posts so far have only asked the logistics of breeding and selling, so I have not inferred any other reason.

 

[Riven]

I guess my question is why are you even breeding? Breeders should be focusing on improving qualities, which you won't be doing. I can say this because you aren't growing kits out to even see what's being produced. You can put to Grand Show animals together and get crap every litter... so why breed?

Now to the cage issue, what if she has a litter of 5 and two of the male kits don't get along, and two of the female kits don't get along? Right there you would need 4 cages.

 

[Brittany]

Actually, this is not true. A breedback does not occur right when the kits are weaned, it occurs when the kits are born. Breeding a female right after she weans kits is NOT a breedback.

Well then perhaps I'm confused as to the true definition of a breedback. Is it only considered a breed back if she gets pregnant while she has kits? Wether the initial kits are still in the womb or nursing? The OP has mentioned putting the female back with the male right after weaning. To me this cycle of being pregnant and nursing back to back for months on end seems to be taxing on the mother. I hear many well respected breeders talking about giving females time off every once in awhile.

 

[ticklechin]

I thought you knew everything about breeding?

http://www.chins-n-hedgies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26639&page=2

 

[RDZCRanch]

Well then perhaps I'm confused as to the true definition of a breedback. Is it only considered a breed back if she gets pregnant while she has kits? Wether the initial kits are still in the womb or nursing? The OP has mentioned putting the female back with the male right after weaning. To me this cycle of being pregnant and nursing back to back for months on end seems to be taxing on the mother. I hear many well respected breeders talking about giving females time off every once in awhile.

Most breeders either don't give their females breaks or they only give them breaks when they've nursed a large litter. If a female has quads here, she gets a one month break after the kits are weaned before I open her to the male again. If my females have 2 or fewer kits, I leave them open to the male for a week for an attempted breedback. Last year I got 2 breedback litters out of the twenty or so females left open. Breedbacks have a negative connotation because people like to project human feelings and emotions onto animals which they don't experience.

A breedback means they became pregnant immediately after birthing the last group of kits so that they are nursing kits while growing kits in the womb. This is what can be taxing on the female. It's not always so and I have several females that are much healthier and happier when pregnant and/or nursing kits.