New Recessive White Mutation?

[threewingedfury]

Ritterspach has what appears to be a mosaic female out of two standard animals. The pairing has produced multiple whites, not just a single white. They're not like the Lowe mutation, nor are they a repeat of the Wilson White since the pairing produced a white each time. Not opening a can of worms or anything, just trying to get a discussion going.

Edit: Let's not discuss price either.

http://chinchillas.com/listings/details/index.cfm?itemnum=945042034

 

[designer chins]

Interesting! I look forward to the pics of the brother they intend to post.

Thank you for calling my attention to it!

 

[Riven]

The thing that doesn't make sense to me, is that usually when someone has a new mutation like that pop up in their herd they mess with it for a while and see what happens, not just put one of the three up for sale, is the other brother for sale too?

Nothing is possible, and I don't know if chin DNA has been researched extensively or not, but I don't see that it would be unusual for a new mutation mix to show up. What I do find strange is it looks exactly like a white, Lowe and fading white's are both recessives but has distinct characteristics.

 

[RDZCRanch]

The thing that doesn't make sense to me, is that usually when someone has a new mutation like that pop up in their herd they mess with it for a while and see what happens, not just put one of the three up for sale, is the other brother for sale too?

I found this odd as well since if you really wanted to sell something from a "unique" line...wouldn't you want to prove how unique that line is first?

I'm not sure it's a recessive white or what is going on but I found it curious that he only listed the grand sires and dams, but didn't go back farther than that. I would wonder if there isn't some white somewhere in the background that just managed to be suppressed until now. It'll be an interesting thing to see what this line does and even more interesting would be seeing someone pay $7k for one chinchilla!:wacko:

 

[mishellyshel]

interesting. good looking chin. expensive.

 

[chinsNdobermans]

I find it strange that he has listed it as well, but he has to have his own reasons for that. I think anything is possible in genetics - look at all of the mutations that have appeared in chinchillas over time - but I wouldn't jump on the ship until it has been looked into more thoroughly.

 

[tunes]

I doubt it will be purchased by anyone in the states. The really high dollar chins on there go overseas.

I have to agree though. I would think you would hoard those chins until you could prove or disprove that it was a new mutation. I know I would!

 

[threewingedfury]

I felt the same way. I personally wouldn't tell anyone if I had a new mutation until I had bred out a few generations to understand it, and then I probably wouldn't sell them either! I'd absolutely love to find a new mutation.

One thing that popped into my mind is maybe we could end up with whites out of whites that produced standards from generations back. Kinda like the eb gene - how it can show up generations down the line? But that's not really true either because you mostly end up with a dirty belly, not an extra dark eb. But considering I breed sugar gliders, we also see this in white tip gliders. We don't know if it's recessive or dominant and it can show up generations down the line out of no where. You can pair two white tips together and never end up with a white tip. Put a white tip with a grey and end up with a white tip. Put two greys together with no white tips in the immediate 4 generations - end up with a white tip. It's very interesting.

 

[jags]

But as the saying goes "Money Talks!" If I could get $7000 for one chin I would sell it in a heart beat. He still has the dam and sire along with the other two males to work with and a male can be mated to several females at a time.

 

[Riven]

Some genetics are carried more readily in females than males as well.

Also anything can happen, the two parents could fall over dead tomorrow morning and he wouldn't have them anymore. Animals aren't something you can "store" for later because you never know what their expiration date is.

 

[Spoof]

I'm with jags. Nice looking chin though.

The difference with this "new line" is that it is a normal looking white, appears to have retained the standard fur (very big + to pelts) and weird recessives are all the rage right now with overseas buyers.

I'm going to comment on new mutations in general;

is that usually when someone has a new mutation like that pop up in their herd they mess with it for a while and see what happens

From what I've seen they either knock them off and split the parents, wholesale to get rid of them or sell out to another breeder. Entire lines have been wiped out because a breeder didn't want to deal with it. If you can make money at it great, but it's uncommon.

Bob Lowe said he couldn't give the whites away when they first showed up, he quit breeding them for awhile, couldn't sell them as pelts and he wasn't big in the pet market.

Same with the Sullivan recessive beige, 90% of that line was killed.

How many of you would like to work with a nice Viophire? Ronda has some for sale... considerably cheaper than that.

 

[tunes]

How many of you would like to work with a nice Viophire?

Ick. I don't even think that sapphires are that great yet. Why would you slap them together with a violet?

Also anything can happen, the two parents could fall over dead tomorrow morning and he wouldn't have them anymore. Animals aren't something you can "store" for later because you never know what their expiration date is.

That's kind of what I was thinking. Immediate cash or not, if you lose the parents to whatever freak thing can happen with chins, then you kind of lose any opportunity to see how far you can go with this.

 

[RDZCRanch]

Ick. I don't even think that sapphires are that great yet. Why would you slap them together with a violet?

Agreed. I'd work on the separate mutations and get them better before slapping them together. Not to mention...."viophire" is not a new mutation. It's a combination of two known recessives.

I agree too, if it was a possible new mutation I was excited about I wouldn't be selling anything from that line or those parents for a couple of generations to try and find out exactly what kind of white it was.

 

[Riven]

appears to have retained the standard fur (very big + to pelts)

So you've seen this animal in person? Because the fur looks the same as a bunch of my whites. They say a picture is worth a thousand words... in the case of a chin more times than not I'd take the words of a rancher I trust over a picture.

I've gotten chins that were supposed to be huge, 700 - 800 gram chins.. pictures looked good, and when I got them I looked at them and I have 6 month old kits bigger than that.

 

[threewingedfury]

I personally saw these animals at the Ritterspach ranch this summer - the males and the females. They were much smaller at the time, but I was not extremely impressed by the fur. At the time he wasn't thinking about selling them (I wasn't interested in the first place, just asked to be nosey). Pictures can be very deceiving.. remember that. ;-)

Same goes for the goldbars and angoras he has - I was not impressed at all. These new mutations really need work before they're distributed. I find it to be the job of a rancher/breeder to take care of that instead of just selling them off for money.

 

[VolunteerChin22]

it's interesting and was probably really cool to find them in the cage (haha i would be really confused for a minute) but I am not seeing what is so special - like Riven said looks like a bunch of whites I have here...I also think it's weird he's selling them...why not pair this female up with another chin and see what genetics result?

 

[Spoof]

Ick. I don't even think that sapphires are that great yet. Why would you slap them together with a violet?

She didn't, they showed up out of a black velvet and standard.

I'll call them Blue Diamond then, anyone want a Blue Diamond?

So you've seen this animal in person? They say a picture is worth a thousand words...

Totally, I was over there this morning! Kidding aside, the fur is strait up. I've taken enough photos and seen enough of theirs to know they don't bother grooming half of the time, the thing has good stand-up fur.

Because the fur looks the same as a bunch of my whites.

You might do good pelting if that is the case.

 

[threewingedfury]

She didn't, they showed up out of a black velvet and standard.

I'll call them Blue Diamond then, anyone want a Blue Diamond?

Ok, so you're saying that a Violet sapphire or viophire or blue diamond showed up out of a black and a standard? So both were violet and sapphire carriers, correct? I guess I'm missing something here.

 

[Spoof]

So both were violet and sapphire carriers, correct?

Your guess is as good as ours. )

 

[threewingedfury]

So how do you guys know that its a viophire, if you don't know if these animals were carriers? Are you just going by color from photos you've seen? Do you happen to have photos of the offspring?

I'm not trying to question you or anything, just trying to understand it.