Formula contradictions...

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Airyn

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 23, 2010
Messages
835
Location
Pennsylvania
Good Morning Everyone!

My not-so-little Maia is due any day now and I've been obsessively searching the interwebs for formula info for about 6 months now. I love my little chinchildren more than words can say and only want the best for them (like all of you, I'm sure!) The biggest issue I've encountered has to to do with formula recipes. In case of an emergency, I'd like to have all of the correct ingredients on hand.

Four different vets have recommended a concoction of KMR and Multi-milk powder. (I assume it's on one of their vet-only sites somewhere.) Breeders, on the other hand, seem to prefer goats milk and rice baby cereal. I saw the post about KMR being for omnivores, not herbivores and that makes more sense to me than what the vets are saying, BUT the vets are assuring me that if something were to happen to Maia (god forbid), KMR is the way to go because it has the correct nutrient levels for baby chins.

What are your thoughts/experiences, etc?

Thanks in advance!


 
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Yeah, I saw that thread as well... thanks though. I was hoping more for personal experiences. Why do you think there are such contradictions between the vets and the breeders? I'd like to better understand the logic.
 
I don't breed nor have had babies, but in breeding and other chin care most vets know squat about chins other than what they read in a text book. Go with the advice of respected breeders here on kit care, you won't be sorry.
 
Thanks for the feedback! Hopefully some more will respond as well. I'm very much a thinker... I want to know WHY! *lol*
 
I agree with Dawn - most vets know about as much as exotics as was in the "other animals" section of their textbook. When you find a vet that treats only exotics, those vets do recommend the goat's milk. I'm currently using the goats' milk mixture to handfeed kits, and they're doing great! So from personal experience, I'm gonna stick with what works.

Also, the formula on here was developed by people who work with chins everyday. In most instances, I would trust their judgement over that of a vet, especially a non-exotics-only vet, who may not see chins much - as I've even run into exotic vets that recommend feeding greens (not hay - like lettuce, kale, etc) to chins. Yeahhhh no. I'm gonna go with the experienced breeders and ranchers on that one.

Something to think about - if you had a baby leopard (just for argument's sake - carnivore) and you had to handfeed it. You wouldn't give it a diet of lettuce and greens, because it's a carnivore and needs meat to meet it's nutritional needs. Same with the chins, KMR is meant for carnivores, which chins aren't. You wouldn't give your chin a plate of ground beef, would you (let's hope not!), so on that same note, I would go with a herbivore milk.
 
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Thank you! Very good point! The four vets in question aren't exotic-specific, but they assured me that they do treat chinchillas regularly. Maia was sick back in December and the one that treated her gave me the correct antibiotic to get her through it (unlike the emergency vet I had to take her to initially) so that established trust for me. Breeding, of course, is an entirely different ballgame, which I do realize.

I enjoyed the leopard reference as well. I don't think I could convince Boji or Maia to go anywhere near ground meat. They'd probably shun me for a few days... or at least until they wanted a raisin. *lol*

 
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The only formula I will use for kits is the one listed in that FAQ. I will shuffle between fresh goats milk or canned goat milk depending on what I can get. I would never use KMR or any other carnivore/omnivore replacement for my kits. I use goat's milk and if I had to in a pinch I would use carnation milk, both of which are safe for herbivores. Chins are not carnivores, they do not eat meat and their dietary requirements are going to be very different from what a kitten or puppy would require.

I question everything my vet says, and I mean everything. I have good vets and they are willing to listen and learn along with me. We both research things before deciding on a course of action. Never hesitate to question your vet. A good vet will understand why you are doing it and be willing to look into it further to find out why. Only now are vets starting to take the time to research into "pocket pets" to be able to treat them effectively. For too many years it was a dog or cat vet trying to treat an exotic, and that just doesn't fly.
 
I like to use lamb replacer milk because I can mix exactly how much I need when I need it.

If I don't have any on hand I keep canned goats milk. I prefer the lamb milk replacer because it's made to feed lambs, it's not processed for human use like the canned goats milk is.

Simply put chins are not puppies or kittens and don't have the same diet or digestive system as them at all, they have different nutritional needs. Would KMR kill a baby chin... probably not, but they're getting nutrients they don't need causing their bodies to work harder for the wrong nutrients, and not getting enough of the ones they do need.
 
Thank you both! I do question everything my vet says, which is how I ended up here. I'm an avid researcher and genuinely enjoy comparing and contrasting different options and opinions for just about every facet of my life.

I was leaning towards the goat's milk formula initially and you all have definitely sealed the decision. It's wonderful to know that there are back-up options out there as well. Let's hope that it doesn't come to that, but at least if it does, I know what to do!

Thank you all again! Please send some positive thoughts to Maia for a safe and healthy delivery!

 
When my first letter was born here, it was a set of quads. I followed the advice from the breeder who sold me the pair. She said to use the KMR. I did. The kits that I had to handfeed were always quite small for their age. My last litter was also quads and I had to handfeed the 2 smallest. I used the formula in the FAQ. The handfed girls, in spite of being quads, caught up with their siblings and all four maintained excellent weights. In fact, they caught up with kits from litters that only had one or two kits in them.
 
From a wife whose husband is a vet-I can tell you first hand that most vets know very little about chins. When hubby was going through his exotic rotation he was given literally a half of a page about chinchillas. It covered colors (only given 40-there were no sapphires, violets, or ebonies. Chins came in black velvets, beige, white, and grey), weights-which if I remember correctly said the average female was 550 gr and the average male was 450, broken limbs, ringworm, malloclusion and furchewing. That's all I could remember. There was alot of misinformation on there-I had to laugh.

So no, vets aren't taught about chinchillas in school. What hubby knows about chins is what he has learned from me and my animals. If I had a chin die-he always necropsy them to learn about them. When a case comes into his office and he is stumped he always calls me up to see if I had any ideas.
 
Wow! That's absolutely insane! I guess that's why it's a medical practice. I hope they've gotten better since he completed medical school, particularly since there's so much informaton available online! That definitely explains why the vet had such issues treating my first chin 15+ years ago though. Poor little Friskers... great personality and so much fun! In retrospect, I'm 99% certain that they gave him too high of a dose of antibiotics. Hindsight's 20/20, right?
 
Hi!

So I just wanted to chime in a bit about milk replacers, because it is a topic very near and dear to my heart... I am a wildlife rehabilitator and nutritionist, and part of my job is spent entirely on formulating milk replacers for various mammalian species we care for at my center. Chinchillas are not one of those animals, but I can provide the basics of the theory for your info. This is just the tip of the iceberg, but I hope it helps...

So, the basics:

Wild mammals all produce milk, but not all milk is the same. The milk for a human baby is different than the milk needed for a calf to develop; in the same way, your chinchilla's needs will be different than the needs of a kitten, puppy, rat, rabbit, or guinea pig. All baby mammals need fat and protein, and no fiber in their milk. They also have different levels of total solids, or the percentage of the milk that isn't water. Some animals have very dilute milk (opossums, for example) while others are so concentrated the milk is thicker than cottage cheese (many fur seals). Although there are many differences between individual milks on a chemical level, there is not enough information on any species' milk (except cow's) for us to know exactly how they differ. So we use the limited information that we have to do the best we can; usually with the "macronutrients" or fat, protein, and total solids.

All brands of commercial milk replacers (esbilac, KMR, LMR, multimilk, etc) are made of the same basic ingredients - usually various parts of whole cow's milk, dried, separated, dehydrated, and recombined to create different balances of nutrients appropriate for baby animals to grow (which animal depends on what they are designing the diet for). There are some based on goat's milk, but the truth is that none of these milk replacers are significantly different from one another in terms of the base ingredients (milk fat is essentially milk fat for all species). Where they DO differ is in their protein and fat balances.

This is where many people go wrong. If you give a baby mammal the wrong balance of protein and fat, they will not thrive. They will either loose weight, or develop gastrointestinal issues like diarrhea or gut stasis. As we all know, these problems can be life threatening and difficult to reverse. The problem is knowing exactly what is required!

Keep in mind that like all pet products, commercial milk replacers are not regulated closely enough to be very reliable. Very little information is required by law to be provided with pet products. Unlike human grade products, they are only required to list 5 things on their labels: Minimum protein, Minimum fat, Maximum fiber, Maximum moisture, and the ingredients in descending order of proportion. There are many loopholes in these laws that allow products to be highly variable - but that's a discussion for another time! The point is, you really only know the company's claim as to the minimum protein and fat; it all depends on if you trust the company or not. Some companies are more reliable than others; for example, mother's helper is awful while KMR (petAg) is reasonably trusted to be what it says it is. However, recently there have been some quality problems with petag as well, so all I'm saying is there is no guarantee.

Having said that, we all do the best we can, and everyone will have a different opinion on what you should do and what works for them. Home recipes using human grade foods have more basic nutrition information available and the ingredients have more reliable quality. The problem with various mixes or home recipes is that you need to crunch some numbers and figure out what your overall basic nutritional analysis will be after the ingredients are mixed, and most people do not know how to do that... so it is hard to narrow the field. The ingredients might be good in the right proportions, but maybe the success with that formula is incredibly low because the balance was off - in other words, you probably could make a goats milk/heavy cream mix that was perfect for chinchillas - but 1 part goats milk to 3 parts heavy cream is very different from 2 parts goats milk to 2 parts heavy cream. In order to get the right balance, you have know what fat/protein ratio you are aiming for AND do the math to figure out how to mix the ingredients. Most people, vets or not, don't know how to do that. Plus, as far as I've seen (someone correct me if they know) there hasn't been a study done on the specific milk composition of chinchillas - so how do you estimate your target?

We have to make educated guesses. There are some "clues" like the correlation between growth rate and total solids (ie. faster means higher). Also, species with similar growth patterns will be similar - but realize this doesn't mean closely related species! Hares and cottontail rabbits are pretty closely related; they look similar and they eat the same things when they are grown up. However their milk needs are wildly different - because hares are precocial (like chinchillas, they are born eyes open and more independant) and cottontails are altricial (born hairless and eyes closed). Figuring out what an animal needs takes research, trial and analysis, and more research. Since I don't work with chinchilla babies, I haven't done any of the research. From my experience though, it would be reasonable to say that an adequate formula could be extrapolated from hare formula, just based on similarities in development - and I'm not at work, but if you want I can give you those values tomorrow. I can also give you a cleaned-up and simplified version of an excel recipe calcuator, if you want to play with it and see what the different recipes end up looking like.

I would tend to trust long time breeders over vets. Realize though that there is a certain mortality level that is accepted when you have a certain number of animals to care for - so although a formula "works," it may not actually be ideal - in fact, survival may be quite low (animals are amazing, even with the worst formula possible, some will survive). I doubt that most breeders have actually run statistics to figure out how many of their hand-fed babies make it - or that smaller breeders have a large enough sample size to really say it was the formula and not chance or another factor.

Anyway, there's a crash course in milk composition macro-nutrition. It isn't everything there is to know, and it probably won't help you feed your little baby chinchilla if something were to happen. But I hope it gives you some of the knowledge you are looking for! I always feel better when I understand something thoroughly :)

Sorry for the long post!
 
Plus, as far as I've seen (someone correct me if they know) there hasn't been a study done on the specific milk composition of chinchillas - so how do you estimate your target?

There was actually if I remember right, but unfortunately it went down with CnQ. I think it might have been Tara that posted it, so if she reads this hopefully she'll post it again.

As far as the recipe most of us use, that was actually given out on CnQ by an experienced rehabber in North Carolina. She apparently used it for many species, with a few tweaks as necessary. The rescue/rehab is known as C.L.A.W.S.

Now, hand feeding survival? Unless there was something happening when they were born, i.e., extremely low birth weight due to prematurity (I used to have zero luck with 25 or under, but thankfully that has changed!), neurological damage, injury at birth (open wounds) etc., I have had a 95-100% survival rate with hand feeding. In going back over my records (yes, I have book after book) I put a note next to those I hand fed and why if they die, and barring one page where I can't make out the remark on the side due to smeared ink, all normal, healthy kits have survived. I point out "normal and healthy" because you can hand feed until you are blue in the face and the kit is still not going to make it. There are just some who are too badly damaged.

Now, into adulthood? I have kept quite a few here that I hand raised, some I have sold to friends, others to people I don't know. I know the ones here have lived into adulthood and many are in my breeding program. I know the ones with my friends survived unless taken by illness (giardia, pneumonia, etc.)

That is just my experience, others may have a different one. I work at home, so I never miss a feeding with the 2 hour rotations, and I keep it up for a minimum of 3 weeks before easing off a bit with good weight gains. That may also have something to do with a pretty good success rate.
 
Plus, as far as I've seen (someone correct me if they know) there hasn't been a study done on the specific milk composition of chinchillas - so how do you estimate your target?

I managed to find the article Peggy was talking about. :)


As for the rest - I have to echo Peggy's post - here in the UK there are a couple of popular formulas used but I personally use evaporated milk as the main ingredient.
I also have a good success rate when hand rearing kits with the evaporated milk formula.
 

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I personally used KMR when I first started with chinchillas and my close friend also used it because of a woman with poor breeding practices who recommended it. Out of the 10 kits I had to handfeed, I had a 60% mortality rate and the rest never grew past 450g with parents well into the 760g+ range and siblings from other litters in the 700g range. Once I started using goat's milk, thanks to CnQ, the 24 kits I've hand raised have not only survived but thrived. I may not be a huge breeder with statistics in the thousands, but I keep meticulous records as do all responsible breeders. I would say from my experience, that the goat's milk formula works as far as getting kits to want to eat and having the kits grow and thrive.
 
I also use the evaporated milk and i have had 100% survival rate so far (knock on wood) - but thats really only talking about 3 chins because I have a small herd. I agree with Peggy about consistently doing the feedings being key - I also think the circumstances surrounding the reason for handfeeding are important. 2 of my three were older when taken from mom since she started antibiotics and I didnt want them to nurse, and one was the runt attacked by littermates relentlessly from day 1. In the latter case I also rotated him with mom which i think was key to his improvement also since he was recovering from injuries.

As far as big breeder statistics I don't know that you would find many breeders who are over, i dont know, lets say 200 chins or so (going by Peggy's size) that would even bother with hand feeding chins - I know Ralph was asked about this and said it's really a survival of the fittest motto around his barn. Now he will place kits with surrogate mothers (wean a single early and give her the kit) but I am quite sure he does not handfeed. So from a research standpoint, if you are looking at smaller herds you would need to look at more herds over longer periods of time to come up with a true average across populations. That being said we would all need to be using the same kind of milk, feeding the same amounts, same schedules, take into account the circumstances of handfeeding etc. to truely have an accurate picture by research standards. It could be done though and would be interesting.

Good post - Id be interested in seeing compairisons.

ETA: Interesting study - I noticed it was conducted in Israel which surprised me. And interesting that it does say it's compairable to rabbits.
 
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Good info! It is good to know that there is such high success with a home recipe :) As I mentioned, I have not done chinchilla kits, but if a recipe is successful for people who do, then they're the people to trust!

I was simply trying to demonstrate that one person's idea of a successful formula may not be one that is actually meeting the needs of the animals. This is demonstrated by the 60% survival rate with KMR - some people would find 60% satisfactory and tell you KMR is fine. However, it is less about ingredients, like KMR or evaporated milk or goats milk, and more about the nutritional content, which can be changed significantly based on the combination and/or dilution. It sounds like whoever came up with the recipe you are all using did their homework. Unfortunately, not everyone does.

That is an excellent article, thanks for sharing. So translated to an "as fed" basis, the article shows that for chinchillas you are looking for 6-8% Protein and 10-15% fat. This means total solids should be right around 22-25%. So converted, dry matter values are 24-33% Protein and 41-62% Fat.

The reason KMR isn't working is that the balance is flipped. KMR dry matter values are 43.8% protein (minimum) and 29.35% fat (minimum). Chinchillas need higher fat, lower protein. Esbilac is slightly closer at 37% protein and 41% fat. Still not great though, protein is too high. LMR is 24% protien and 30% fat. So while that is even closer, it is still a little low in the fat department. The result would probably not be significant mortality or anything, just slower growth. So if you wanted to use a powdered milk replacer and create a much closer chinchilla milk substitute, and possibly not have to feed as frequently, you would need to increase the milk fat.

Anyway, I've got to run, but cool stuff!
 
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