Dwarf/Mini chins.. is this real or did something bad happen?

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ALS_WIS

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Hey everyone, I have been wondering about this a while. I looked in a lot of mcba newsletters a person gave me to read, searched the web, and laugh at the library here for ANYTHING on chins period.


First, IS there such a thing as a mini or dwarf, or are they just a fluke that end up tiny? The reason I am asking is about five or 6 months ago I had a pair of beautiful beiges born. They were normal and are normal In EVERY way, but they are small, and I mean small like a miniture chinchilla. They got so big and then they just stay there, I weigh all the time and nothing changes. They eat everything, tradition, oxbow hay, sometimes the orchard mixed in with it, supplement, exercise, and are totally docile and nice, I am just wondering, is this a mutation of size or do other people have them like this normally.. the father was smaller than the mom but both were normal size. Mom is currently preg and due for may 14 with some standards.. I wonder if they will be the same?

By the way, I dont know if this has anything to do with it, but they were twins in the way they shared a placenta and were on the same side.
Thanks. :wave5:
 
There are dwarves and mini chinchillas. Dwarves are an actual genetic mutation. They have all the characteristics of a dwarf (wide backside, short tail, big head). A "mini" chinchillas is just.. well, small. They just can't get past a certain point, and they stop growing. But, just because they are small, does not make them a dwarf.

ETA: Here are some photos of an actual dwarf on the spoiledchins website http://www.spoiledchins.net/My_Chins/willow.htm
 
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If your chins produce kits that are too small, I would stop breeding them. There is no point in producing chins that will be too small, it is not really a quality breeder should try to produce. You should actually try to the quite the opposite. These small females might be bred later and have troubles giving birth. Therefore you put these lives in dangers. That is, unless you actually have real dwarves, which I doubt as they are quite rare and only few breeders have them.

MAybe I just misunderstand your question though :oops:
 
I think they're just asking if their new kits are considered dwarves. And unless they have two dwarf carriers (which I highly doubt), I find the possibility really unlikely. They would have to be a first generation mutation. But I do agree, if your chins are producing this small of chins, you're best taking them out of breeding. I wouldn't pull them for just one fluke litter, however.
 
It is not impossible that you can end up with two dwarf carriers, It is not likely though. Sounds like you just had small kits.
 
Some pedigrees will tell you if the chin has dwarfism in it's genetics, but usually (from my understanding) in order to get dwarfs, you need a dwarf + dwarf carrier pair or at least dwarf carrier + dwarf carrier. If this is a regular occurance for your pair, I wouldn't breed them any longer.
 
Well I think you need 2 dwarf carrier and not 1 drawf and 1 carrier. Cause logically, if the female was a dwarf and the male not, she would definitely not be able to give birth to a non-dwarf baby. And if the male is dwarf and not the female, he's gonna have a tough time doing the job done :hilarious: Maybe I am mistaken but that's what I was always told.
 
Ok yep, after seeing the pics, she is definetly not a dwarf. From the day she was born, I picked her as a keeper because she always wanted tobe with me, and my pets, breeding quality or not, dont get bred, because of my attachment to them. I learned a hard lesson with that.

On another note, if I made it sound like I would breed the small chinchilla, I must have totally made it wrong, because I wouldnt think of it. It was her first litter, she is a big girl, and the dad is normal sized. She is having another litter this may , due on the 14, ( the mother, not the little daughter I let her keep who still sleeps under her hehe), and she has been bred to a chinchilla I bought who would have otherwise been put into shows, as expressd by the breeder who is a very reputable and credible member of chin breeders and on this forum. I am excited to see what comes out, however, if they are of this size again, yes, I would ovbiously never breed her again but I would keep her as a spoiled pet =). She gives unconditional love.. one of the girls that will sit wherever you want, when you want, has never even nipped a person, and will fall asleep on you. She has been this way since I bought her, and her personality comes into all her kits, so I am hoping it was just the father, who was smaller, and maybe somewhere in his genes are even smaller ones. Now she is being bred with the standard who is from completely different lines and geograpic areas.

Anyways, again to reiterate this, NO i am NOT breeding a chinchilla that is NOT fit for breeding. I have been doing this a while, and I do know these things. It may help new people to read this however...

On a side note, do dwarf chinchillas have any known medical problems? They were kinda cute hehe. My Lily, who is small, has a very long tail, and although she IS growing, even though I said it seemed to get so far and stop, I weighed them all in today and gave them bats betwen the original post and this, and she has gained some weight, and is getting the big butt and hips like her mom, but I have looked on sites, and I have not found one telling me when chinchillas of mutations are USUALLY or GENERALLLY done growing. I am assuming 5 and 6 months is not typical for mutations, but then I have a 670g 6 month old white female, sister of a different litter to the standard that is going to be sire to the mom due on the 14 who had small babies the first time around,.
 
Well I think you need 2 dwarf carrier and not 1 drawf and 1 carrier. Cause logically, if the female was a dwarf and the male not, she would definitely not be able to give birth to a non-dwarf baby. And if the male is dwarf and not the female, he's gonna have a tough time doing the job done :hilarious: Maybe I am mistaken but that's what I was always told.

where there is a will there is a way. A dwarf male can get a regular female, but you cannot breed a dwarf female safely. I once knew a man who had a minuture horse (stud) pastured with two draft horses..safe right I mean that little stud could not have gotten to those huge girlies...nope he got the job done somehow
:thinking:
 
to kansas city chins- the girl, who I have right now, her brother is in a good home, with a mom who always wanted one, she cannot habe pets because of allergies, but is not allergic to chins,and her son, who is 4, treats him like the most fragile thing ever. When I go there to bring supplies, he always gives the boy a kiss and makes sure to tell me "BE VERY GENTLE WITH LUCKY" it is so cute, but I do not know what he weighs. He has become bigger than sister.

Sister, who I have here, weighs in around 400 at 5 months.
 
Well I think you need 2 dwarf carrier and not 1 drawf and 1 carrier. Cause logically, if the female was a dwarf and the male not, she would definitely not be able to give birth to a non-dwarf baby. And if the male is dwarf and not the female, he's gonna have a tough time doing the job done :hilarious: Maybe I am mistaken but that's what I was always told.

I read it on spoiled chins, heh, I dunno if I read it wrong or what, it was a while back after all =P I'll post it though, I just looked it up again.

"Breeding: Dwarf kits are born at the same size as "normal" chinchilla kits are. For this reason, true dwarf females should never be bred, because her pelvis may not be able to accommodate a normal sized kit. It is best to breed a dwarf carrier female to a dwarf male. Keep in mind that dwarf males have very short legs and cannot reach to mate with large females."

So, I dunno, I'm stumped. Thankfully I don't plan to ever breed dwarfs because I'd be REALLY lost lol. Here's the webpage.
http://spoiledchins.net/dwarf_chinchillas.htm
 
I had a 'mini' chin born 8 months ago - I have kept him but not for breeding (I actually gave him to my granddaughter who lives with me) - He is a doll (at beautifully marked mosaic) and weighs only 335 grams at 8 months - Had him vet checked and blood work done to make sure he was healthy - Vet could not find any reason for his 'smallness' Both parents are good size but I have switched mates for them, just in case. The mom has previously had normal sized kits
 
In regards to dwarf chins having health issues, I recall there being speculation they are more prone to heart issues, just as humans with the dwarf gene can also be more prone to certain health problems.

As for breeding dwarf animals (chins, rabbits, what have you) its generally advised a carrier female paired with a dwarf male, tho a carrier male could also be used (you'd simply get less dwarf offspring with a carrier male, than a dwarf male). Think of it like any other recessive gene - violets you breed a carrier with a violet, or 2 carriers, and what are your chances of getting violet kits... works very similar.

As for when mutations are done growing, that depends on the mutation. You never answered what exactly are the parents and/or kits, so that makes it a bit harder to say. I've heard many times of ebonies who still continue to grow well into their 2nd year, as an example, whereas standards are usually done before turning a year old.

... I think there was another point to be touched on but my dogs distracted me and I've forgotten it now (lol)
~Barb~
 
Were they born via c-section or how do you know they shared a placenta?

Dwarves have specific characteristics, they have a larger flatter forehead, they have bigger hind feet, their ears seem either very, very small, or very large for their heads, and they move in a funny hobble gait.

Becka: She is smaller in size, and slow to learn, has funny hoobly gate, and you can see in this photo the pronounced head.
becka2.jpg


Smidgen has every possible characteristic of a dwarf. You have kind of see the way her body is put together in this photo.
smidgen2.jpg


And no, I do not breed dwarves, I just somehow collect them here.

As for Kindra's site, it's exactly as it's stated. Perhaps there is a part you don't understand?

Lets say a dwarf male breeds a std sized female. The kits even though they will be normal sized or slightly smaller, will carry the dwarf gene. If any females were bred to a dwarf male you would get the chance of dwarves, or dwarf carriers.

Personally all my dwarves are outgoing awesome pets, perhaps I should start breeding them... unfortunately they are known to have shorter life spans, and more tendency towards various injuries, such as injuries due to their hobbily gate, they need shorter shelves. Otherwise they aren't know for any certain issues that I'm aware of. None of my have any problems but Becka, and she's learned a lot since she's came here, but sometimes she still gets that "Huh?" look on her face.
 
omg stop posting pics of those dwarfs, I have uncontrollable giggles and really want one I think when I see their tiny makeup and little hands hehe. They just look roly poly ;p

Iayla, I am sorry for forgetting to post the type of parents and what the kits were, stupid of me- The mother is a standard, from very reputable lines and breeder, and the father is a homo beige from the same breeder, but of course they are unrelated, I was given pedigree and also breeder told me who I can trust. The father, had a pink white dad and a homo beige mom, the reason I say he is homo beige only is because he isnt white.. he is exactly how you see homo beiges, only maybe a tad lighter.. in some areas he ISwhite but most just like a homo beige, eyes are glowing pink.


of course they had hetero beige twins.. the reason I am saying they shared a placenta is that they were both from the same horn when they came out and only one placenta came out, I witnessed the birth from the first kak of on coming contractions to the end. I was worried when the placenta did not come out fter the girl, who was first, and then about ten minutes later, here is the boy, and ten minutes after that there is the placenta, which was pretty big.

I was worried about her. I did take her to the vet. ( If anyone has read my posts, please dont think I am a vet fanatic, but when I am worried, they go to the vet... the only times I take them is usually during things I cannot figure out myself, and this issue I needed assistance on). They had taught me how to check before, and I could feel nothing the second day after the kits were out, not lumps, or even a tiny thing except for internal fecal matter that was inthe intestings, but the vet also determined for me that there was no placenta as far as she could tell. She also.

Now mom is pregnant again, and the placentas have been able to be felt, there are two, one in each horn right now, I am assuming, if they go ok, there will be at least a kit in each horn, this time not twins sharing a placenta.. does this help? Let me know if I missed anything.

Those dwarfs are sooo cute.. I wonder if they have health problems though.. I did read of course all replys made in this thread, but you would think they might have problems..

As for the boy, Lucky, who is in my album too ( they all are inclding the rest of my chins, me and my dog and cat hehe) I named him Lucky because when he was born, they had a custom made house my husband made out of kiln dried untreated pine, he is good at making things, but I was the stupid one, and didnt make him drill or nail it to the back of the cage, and on his first morning, Lucky was behind the house, and it happened while we were getting ready to take my husband to work.. wel first thing I do after waking up uis go see new babies how they are doing etc, well I only see one. This is a extremely secure chin maternity cage, and I am thinking wtf, heart is racing. THEN, I see two little feet pinned between the back of the house and the cage wall. At some point, maybe he was back there, mom freaked out couldnt find him, or whatever, and she moved the cage and crushed him accidently. I took cage out and he flopped into my hand. I thought he was dead... I brought him into the kitchen and he was like a ragdoll. I felt for broken anything.. nothing seemed broken. He opened his eyes a little, and I held him close, and noticed he was gasping for air. I was a wreck, crying, etc, I put him on the table, and he layed there, and then he started to trey to walk but couldnt lift his head . I thought maybe his neck was crushed. I blew with a coffee stirrer stick into his mouth a bit, but he seemd like he was on his way out. I had to bring husband to work, and I was torn between bringing him and letting him lay beside mom for his death, because I was sure he was on his way out.

I layed him under mom, who knew something happened. She was making these very weird noises, I never have heard since. Maybe a chinchilla mom crying? I am not sure.

So I drive him to work, race home, could have got a huge speeding ticket, and go to the cage. I looked, and here is one chinchilla, racing around the cage, looking at me as if to say hi. I thought ok this is the girl. Then I look in the house, and see one under mom, but tail is curled in nursin position. Nope, the one racing around, was the boy who I was sure was dead. It was as if nothing had happened, and girl was just nursing along. I named him Lucky.

I have a friend who is a single mom, and she has a son of a few years old, older than his two's though, he is allergic to pets, so is she but not the chins and when they came to see my "zoo" they wanted one of the little babies when they were ready. I knew they were going to be small. Both of their birth weights were in the 30's, the boy was31, girl was 33. Through theirnursing, altough milk didnt come for three days, I think mom was a little nerous for her first litter at two of em, they both gained exactly the same amount, and stay exactly within 2 grams of each other, until the end, when Lucky, the boy, got a little bigger. I was worried about them being small, but I had her take the bigger one, and they love him. She told me explicitly she wanted a smaller one anyways. So they are happy, and they buy their tradition and oxbow from me every month so I see him, he is the same as Lily, small, never grows much, but is addicted to his wheel they got from the net, eats like nomal, acts normal, just smaller,. Same as lily. I think there is nothing wrong just they are smaller. Despite all this, at 6 months she is going to the vet, and so is Lucky. We are splitting the bill, and just making sure they are ok.
 
They had taught me how to check before, and I could feel nothing the second day after the kits were out, not lumps, or even a tiny thing except for internal fecal matter that was inthe intestings, but the vet also determined for me that there was no placenta as far as she could tell.

Many old time ranchers say that you should never palpate a chin. And in general I truly believe that people should not palpate their chins unless they know what they are doing, not just a vet showing someone how. It can cause severe damage to the mother and/or unborn kits. Your last chin with issues had a dead kit inside of it, the necropsy's suggested causes were basically infection,viral, or trauma. Trauma in unborn animals is usually caused by the mother falling directly onto the abdomen, a massive fight, and people poking around where they don't need to be poking usually.

they were both from the same horn when they came out

This indicated you even palpated during labor, because kits come out down... there is only one way out.

Usually the best way to care for pregnant chins, is to leave them alone, and watch for signs of trouble. People in general love to play doctor and make things more complicated than needed. My mom's friend used to raise cats and keep losing kittens, stillborn, because she couldn't leave her hands off the momma cat, always had to be feeling around. Finally she went to the vet and said, I don't know what's going on, they all feel okay, I feel them moving, then they stop, then they move, then they stop, then some are okay, and some are dead... and he said STOP FEELING! Her live birth rate increased dramatically.
 
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