Nutri-Cal

I had to take one of my chinnies, Milo, to the vet today because I noticed that he didn’t eat his food last night. He was checked out by the vet, listened and felt of tummy, checked teeth ect. Milo did have a couple of small hard poos at the vet. The vet gave me Nutri-Cal to give him and I wanted to verify that it’s not going to cause any problems. The vet that knows more about chinchillas wasn’t in, but this vet does deal with horses quite often so that makes me feel a little better about his advice. Milo hasn’t completely stopped eating, but close enough, I’ve seen him eat a couple pieces of hay. Also I’m going to start giving him some tummy massages.
Thanks for the help.

Nutri-Cal is supplement, high in calories. Yes, it safe to give to your chin.

yeah it is safe to give but I don't think for long term. If the chin is having problems I would be more curious as to why? What did the vet say was wrong? why did he suggest nutrical and not anything else? Also if it's not eating I would get some critical care and use that instead.

Personally, I would never give Nutrical to a chinchilla or any small herbivore. It is basically a high calorie supplement loaded with fats and sugars. High fat foods signal the body to slow the process of digestion and this can be very bad for a chinchilla. If a chinchilla does not have food adequately moving through the gut, it can lead to G.I. stasis. If you need to supplement your chin, I would stick with Critical Care which was developed as a supplement for herbivores and has high fiber to keep food in the gut moving and prevent stasis.

I would only give Nutrical as a last resort. As SUmiko said - it is not meant for an herbivore. Instead, go with the critical care.

Nutri-Cal is just calories in a tube. There are better sources of calories for chins, especially if they are having gut issues.

A direct quote from Alice Kline "Nutrical The greatest food suppliment for babies and sick animals that has happened"

Thanks for the responses. I'll call other vets about getting some Critical Care. I've been trying to get him to eat, but it's been very little and he didn't like the massages. Hopefully tonight will go better.

A direct quote from Alice Kline "Nutrical The greatest food suppliment for babies and sick animals that has happened"

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Last time I checked, chins were herbivores.

Just out of curiosity Luke - Would you also feed your chinchillas steak?

ETA: A description of Nutri-Cal:

Nutrical is a high calorie, low volume dietary supplement for dogs and cats that won't eat. It provides an additional source of energy for hunting and working dogs.

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No where on the packageing does it use the word "carnivore " as you claimed before editing your post. The ingredient list doesn't list steak or any other product that would make it a "carnivore" only suppliment or one that would harm a herbivore. Wether some one chooses to listen to people here ,or take the advise of a vet who has had at least eight years of advanced education, and the advice of some one who is world recognized for their research for years in chinchilla. as well as having numerious published books on chinchilla as well as numerious articles on health and care of chinchilla's in periodicals around the world. Is up to the individual.
But as for my choice I choose to follow the advice of those with decades of chinchilla health research. and that of more then one vet.

I changed it Luke, because I could not find my tube that I had here. On the back, it said "carnivorous", but I did not, however, want to post that in light of your "debates" about misquoting and so on.

My point to the steak comment was some things are meant for chins, some aren't. Perhaps during Alice Klein's time, Critical Care was not what it is today. Or, perhaps Nutri-Cal was the "quick fix" instead of the long-term treatment, as Critical Care is. Pet owners are more willing to sit and spend hours upon hours on their one "pet" chin. Spending as long as necessary at the vet or at home caring for them. That is not practical for most ranchers.

So your advice then, with an animal suffering from bloat, would be to load it with a bunch of junk meant for dogs and cats, rather than to feed it a supplement specifically formulated for chinchillas?

On some things I would agree with you about long time breeders/ranchers and their advice, but when a product comes along that is proven to get the job done, and you don't have to feed something that is NOT recommended for chinchillas, I'll take my chances with the critical care.

RMC said:

Wether some one chooses to listen to people here ,or take the advise of a vet who has had at least eight years of advanced education

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Then do I count? I get to have a DVM behind my name now. Though I don't do much with exotics; I'm currently dog-and-cat only, but I had a lot of equine and exotics as part of my elective education, and I hope to add those into my practice eventually.

I wouldn't use Nutrical or anything similar in a hindgut fermenter, such as a horse or a chinchilla. This is mostly because of the high fat and sugar content; the last thing a sick hindgut fermenter needs is disruption of its GI flora. I might use Nutrical as a very infrequent treat (but there are so many other better things out there - I certainly am not recommending this by any means). Is it safe? in small quantities, yeah. Is it advised? probably not.

I wouldn't use a lot of things that are labelled for dogs and cats in a chinchilla. Even if the packaging doesn't say "carnivore," it does say "dogs and cats." I might use Nutrical in a ferret; ferrets certainly love the stuff. But I wouldn't even give that much to a ferret - there's other options for supportive feeding in them, and too much'll give 'em diarrhea (they don't have the greatest digestive systems).

In this day and age, we have Critical Care, which is an excellent source of fiber, nutrients and calories for a sick chinchilla. Oxbow even makes a large animal version (though I doubt it's economical for a critter the size of a horse). For very young kits, Nutrical might be a better choice than Critical Care (if the kit hasn't developed the ability to digest fiber well yet), but even so... we have better options for them as well.

IMO, Nutrical hasn't got a place in herbivore medicine. It may have a place in carnivore medicine, but not much of one.

I have a tube right infront of me . The term "carnivorous, carnivor" Or any of the other versions of the word aren't on the tube.Your statement that iit is just calories in a tube is ,once again not supported By the minium guaranteed analysis on each and every tube.
As far as it not being recommended for chins. That is not what more then two vets have told me. I am not a vet but I have a lot more trust in following the advice of the vet that did see the chin in person, especially when it coinsides with what i have been told by varius vets. and supported by state ments made by those who have done years of research . Rather then attack me for posting a differant point of view. Let both point of view be heard and allow people to the choice what works best for them after consultations with their vet.

Miyu83 said:

The vet that knows more about chinchillas wasn’t in, but this vet does deal with horses quite often so that makes me feel a little better about his advice.

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Here she specifically states that the vet that saw the chin wasn't a vet specializing in chins. So why should she feel absolutely comfortable taking the advice of a vet that doesn't normally work with them?

Also, just another thought, and I honestly don't know much about Alice Kline, but looked up when they started in chins in the 1950's perhaps some info is going to be outdated. Would you go along 100% on an article for your own health written in the 1950's or even 80's? There is so much that is learned in the years that new things are made, things are made better or differently, that just because one person states that one way is how they do things, this does not mean that you should continue to do it that way.

If there is another alternative i.e. Critical Care, why not go that route and not take any risks of messing with a chin's gut?

Wow Luke, your idea of "attack" varies greatly from mine. Your tone is completely argumentative and on the attack. I was trying to lighten you up a bit with the steak comment, that's all.

You now have a vet, who from what I understand works in a fairly large practice along with very experienced exotics vets, telling you that it is not a product that should be used in a chin. Now, granted, I have not been to every vet in the US, but I can say that from visiting more than I want to, that I have never heard of a vet recommending Nutri-Cal for a chin with bloat issues. Every "experienced vet" (which, she already said this vet is not) recommends Critical Care.

So, what is the problem here?

I would not feed nutrical.

Critical care is your best option. You want to get as much food in your chin as possible. When I'm hand feeding I do it every 4 hours or so. I hope your chin feels better soon.

Does every single vet treat the same condition the exact same way? IS this vet willing to state that she the treating vet was wrong in his treatment based not on seeing the chin but by what she knows via the internet? As I have said all along their is more then one way to do things. and I personally would take the advice of a vet that has seen treated ,the animal in person over that of some one on line or a vet that has never seen the animal in person.

alli713 said:

Here she specifically states that the vet that saw the chin wasn't a vet specializing in chins. So why should she feel absolutely comfortable taking the advice of a vet that doesn't normally work with them?

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Because horses, chinchillas, rabbits and guinea pigs are all sort of the same thing in different shapes. Except not.

tunes said:

You now have a vet, who from what I understand works in a fairly large practice along with very experienced exotics vets, telling you that it is not a product that should be used in a chin.

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Currently small dog-and-cat practice. But I have spent some time with people who do work primarily with exotics, and have done a certain amount of reading. Plus, as I said, chins and horses are kind of the same, and I've got a moderate amount of equine veterinary experience as well.

RMC said:

Does every single vet treat the same condition the exact same way? IS this vet willing to state that she the treating vet was wrong in his treatment based not on seeing the chin but by what she knows via the internet?

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Yes, there are many ways to treat things. I never said the treating vet is wrong. All I said is that I personally wouldn't use Nutrical in a hindgut fermenter; it has been used, and safely. It would be a way to get calories into a chin who's not eating well. Probably a better choice to get calories and fiber into a chin who's not eating well is Critical Care. I did not tell anyone they were wrong, that I recall. Sometimes high fat/high carbohydrate supplements are used in horses to get calories on, but they have to be used carefully - this may be where the attending vet got the idea. Would I do it? probably not. Can it be done? yes. Just because I wouldn't do it doesn't mean it's wrong. There's lots of things I wouldn't do that have been successfully done by other people. But I am of the opinion that there is a better alternative in chinchillas.

So... a year ago when I took one of my chins in to the vet for an eye infection and they gave me an eye ointment with steriods I should have just blindly followed along with that vet? I didn't end up using the ointment with steriods because I was able to get drops without the steriods from the breeder.

I honestly think that so many people would end up with dead chins if they just went along with what vets said. So what if they have a degree? If you don't study chins you aren't going to know what's best for them.

alli713 said:

I honestly think that so many people would end up with dead chins if they just went along with what vets said. So what if they have a degree? If you don't study chins you aren't going to know what's best for them.

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I agree. If I hadn't second guessed my previous vet, one of my chins would have no teeth. The vet tried to tell me my chin's roots were growing into her eyes and that the chin needed an immediate extraction. She was WRONG. Chloe had an abscess, and the vet had no idea how to read the x-rays.

Well it's moring and Milo has only nibbled on the hay and 2 pellents. I put down white papertowels last night and there are no pee spots or poos. I also noticed no water is gone or sticks chewed. I will to looking for critial care today. However until I find some I will give him a little bit of the Nutri-Cal so that he has someting in him, I was told to give what looks to be a 1/2 of drop of the stuff. I have tried handfeeding and puting mshed pellets in a syringe, but it didn't work. I even tried pain water. Also he is very stubbron and won't let me do tummy massages, he tries to bite.

I have to say, right now this seems about the worst thing to go through. I took him to the vet to get help and I feel like I didn't get anything.... This fourm is wonderful, now if only I can get the tools I need and get food and water in the little Chinchilla. Thanks

PS. Do I need to start a new thread since this is seems to have started a debate?